The Durruti Group

A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace

2007-03-22T06:05:00.000-07:00

Way back in February, 1996, John Perry Barlow uploaded his "Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace."

Governments of the Industrial World, you weary giants of flesh and steel, I come from Cyberspace, the new home of Mind. On behalf of the future, I ask you of the past to leave us alone. You are not welcome among us. You have no sovereignty where we gather.

We have no elected government, nor are we likely to have one, so I address you with no greater authority than that with which liberty itself always speaks. I declare the global social space we are building to be naturally independent of the tyrannies you seek to impose on us. You have no moral right to rule us nor do you possess any methods of enforcement we have true reason to fear.

Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. You have neither solicited nor received ours. We did not invite you. You do not know us, nor do you know our world. Cyberspace does not lie within your borders. Do not think that you can build it, as though it were a public construction project. You cannot. It is an act of nature and it grows itself through our collective actions.

You have not engaged in our great and gathering conversation, nor did you create the wealth of our marketplaces. You do not know our culture, our ethics, or the unwritten codes that already provide our society more order than could be obtained by any of your impositions.

You claim there are problems among us that you need to solve. You use this claim as an excuse to invade our precincts. Many of these problems don't exist. Where there are real conflicts, where there are wrongs, we will identify them and address them by our means. We are forming our own Social Contract . This governance will arise according to the conditions of our world, not yours. Our world is different.

Cyberspace consists of transactions, relationships, and thought itself, arrayed like a standing wave in the web of our communications. Ours is a world that is both everywhere and nowhere, but it is not where bodies live.

We are creating a world that all may enter without privilege or prejudice accorded by race, economic power, military force, or station of birth.

We are creating a world where anyone, anywhere may express his or her beliefs, no matter how singular, without fear of being coerced into silence or conformity.

Your legal concepts of property, expression, identity, movement, and context do not apply to us. They are all based on matter, and there is no matter here.

Our identities have no bodies, so, unlike you, we cannot obtain order by physical coercion. We believe that from ethics, enlightened self-interest, and the commonweal, our governance will emerge . Our identities may be distributed across many of your jurisdictions. The only law that all our constituent cultures would generally recognize is the Golden Rule. We hope we will be able to build our particular solutions on that basis. But we cannot accept the solutions you are attempting to impose.

In the United States, you have today created a law, the Telecommunications Reform Act, which repudiates your own Constitution and insults the dreams of Jefferson, Washington, Mill, Madison, DeToqueville, and Brandeis. These dreams must now be born anew in us.

You are terrified of your own children, since they are natives in a world where you will always be immigrants. Because you fear them, you entrust your bureaucracies with the parental responsibilities you are too cowardly to confront yourselves. In our world, all the sentiments and expressions of humanity, from the debasing to the angelic, are parts of a seamless whole, the global conversation of bits. We cannot separate the air that chokes from the air upon which wings beat.

In China, Germany, France, Russia, Singapore, Italy and the United States, you are trying to ward off the virus of liberty by erecting guard posts at the frontiers of Cyberspace. These may keep out the contagion for a small time, but they will not work in a world that will soon be blanketed in bit-bearing media.

Your increasingly obsolete information industries would perpetuate themselves by proposing laws, in America and elsewhere, that claim to own speech itself throughout the world. These laws would declare ideas to be another industrial product, no more noble than pig iron. In our world, whatever the human mind may create can be reproduced and distributed infinitely at no cost. The global conveyance of thought no longer requires your factories to accomplish.

These increasingly hostile and colonial measures place us in the same position as those previous lovers of freedom and self-determination who had to reject the authorities of distant, uninformed powers. We must declare our virtual selves immune to your sovereignty, even as we continue to consent to your rule over our bodies. We will spread ourselves across the Planet so that no one can arrest our thoughts.

We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace. May it be more humane and fair than the world your governments have made before.

Davos, Switzerland

February 8, 1996

Is LL trying to shut people up?

2007-03-10T08:03:00.000-08:00

We wonder if LL was trying to stop a demo outside the FN HQ in Piedmont tonight. After several avs reported that someone was trying to tp them out of the region, LL announced that the region was closing imminently. Stifling descent? Technical problems?

Channel 4 reports on Anarchism in SL

2007-03-10T07:17:00.000-08:00

Watch the UK's Channel 4 report on Anarchy in SL

A busy night...

2007-03-06T13:48:00.000-08:00

Real World Links

2007-02-26T05:07:00.000-08:00

Decadence: A polite look into Australia's ineffective representative "democracy" and the suppression of dissidents in recent years.

Murray Bookchin Interview on YouTube. Very clear explanation of the reasoning behind his moves away from Stalinism, Marxism and Trotskism and toward anarchism.

Peter Ludlow's Crypto Anarchy, Cyberstates, and Pirate Utopias: read a review and find links to the book here.

The International Project for a Participatory Society: a group of activists, writers, media producers, and others committed to the basic principles and values of solidarity, diversity, equity, self management.

Anarchy Archives: An online research center on the history and theory of anarchism.

Wade Davis on TED Talks: In this stunning talk, National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence Wade Davis celebrates the extraordinary diversity of the world's indigenous cultures.

The Libsecondlife project is an effort directed at understanding how Second Life works from a technical perspective, and extending and integrating the metaverse with the rest of the web.

Anarchist Federation: aims to abolish Capitalism and all oppression to create a free and equal society.

Globalise Resistance: Globalise Resistance brings together groups and individuals opposed to the global growth of corporate power.

Harold Pinter's Nobel Lecture

CWI: The CWI is part of the struggle to overthrow the rule of big business and global capitalism.

The Power of Nightmares (video) [part 1] [part 2] [part 3]: In the past our politicians offered us dreams of a better world. Now they promise to protect us from nightmares. The most frightening of these is the threat of an international terror network. But just as the dreams were not true, neither are these nightmares.

Post-Soviet Lessons for a Post-American Century (essay) [part 1] [part 2] [part 3]: "the collapse of the Soviet Union could be viewed as a dress rehearsal for what is to come"

The EFF: working to protect your digital rights.

SLURLS... links of interest in world

2007-02-26T03:59:00.000-08:00

The Conscious Lounge: The center for Conscious Education - Chill space, gallery and classroom.

Marxism/Socialism Resources: Slobodan Milosz's garage. A treasure trove of resources commemorating the infuential ideas of Karl Marx.

Secondlife Liberation Army HQ: Home of the SLLA

Svarga Biosphere: A beta test for a fully functional artificial ecology system for Second Life.

A conversation with Davidorban Agnon

2007-02-19T18:52:00.000-08:00

After hearing him speak at the LGSG meeting held in Neualtenburg on the weekend, SLA member Gomu Priestman set up a talk between Davidorban Agnon and Hanako Nakamura of the Durruti Group. This is a lightly edited transcript of their conversation.

Hanako Nakamura: Good morning Davidorban.
Davidorban Agnon: Hi Hanako!
Hanako Nakamura: hi. Are you free for that talk?
Davidorban Agnon: I am, sure!

Hanako Nakamura: I heard from Gomu that you had talked with LL about open sourcing servers
Davidorban Agnon: Yes
Hanako Nakamura: I read the transcript of the LGSG meeting
Davidorban Agnon: aha
Hanako Nakamura: and it sounded like you had an inside line...
Davidorban Agnon: They have not indicated that what they were telling me was confidential. But please ask.

Hanako Nakamura: why you were interested in that?
Davidorban Agnon: There is a fundamental contradiction in how LL operates today and in how many people see SL
Hanako Nakamura: agreed
[15:27] Davidorban Agnon: LL is a for-profit organization while the spontaneous identification of many residents within SL is at such level that they feel they should have a say on how it is run
[15:28] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[15:28] Davidorban Agnon: and determine how it works, even on a democratic level. an other element of the contradicion is that the more successful SL will become, the less likely is that LL is going to be able and scale it and enrich it
[15:29] Hanako Nakamura: yes, right
[15:29] Davidorban Agnon: and keep giving the developers the enhancements to the tools that they need ... So it is in the interest of both the residents and LL itself to move to a more open standards based
[15:30] Hanako Nakamura: quite agree
[15:30] Davidorban Agnon: operation than today. but .... that has an even more fundamental problem than the issues they are facind and that is coming from the fact that the current limitations that make the economy go around are self imposed by LL and artificial and not intrinsic.
[15:31] Hanako Nakamura: indeed
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: with the metaverse and its structure these limitations are that of land ownership
[15:31] Hanako Nakamura: quite
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: and maybe even more importantly that of the chain of properties of the prims created in SL
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: copy
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: modify
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: transfer
[15:31] Hanako Nakamura: a little unclear there, but go on
[15:32] Davidorban Agnon: Let me elaborate a little:
[15:32] Hanako Nakamura: sure
[15:32] Davidorban Agnon: physical objects as we know them in RL have natural limitations. if I give you a stool I don't have it anymore. and if you give it to someone else, you don't have it anymore. if I give you a hammer you can apply it to the stool and I can not do anything about it. In SL the rules are different
[15:33] Hanako Nakamura: i see where you're coming from, ok.
[15:33] Davidorban Agnon: If I choose than you can give the stool to someone and still have it or I can limit you from applying any editing tool to change the stool. Now ... there is NO WAY that this chain of DRM (Digital Rights Management) that the SL economy depends on can be maintained if prims can be transferred from one metaverse to the other
[15:34] Hanako Nakamura: aha
[15:34] Davidorban Agnon: ie in RL from one server to the other
[15:34] Davidorban Agnon: as it comes out from the LL servers
[15:35] Hanako Nakamura: may I interject?
[15:35] Davidorban Agnon: and goes in the ones that I control
[15:35] Davidorban Agnon: yes
[15:35] Hanako Nakamura: now, from what you've been getting at, it would seem that you would want to impose a set of restrictions on supply... perhaps to maintain transferability
[15:36] Davidorban Agnon: I didn't imply what I want. I am exposing the issues inherent with the change
[15:36] Hanako Nakamura: perhaps to ensure a more RL esque economy
[15:36] Davidorban Agnon: Change is necessary and it will bring a huge upheaval on how the SL economy works
[15:36] Hanako Nakamura: I beg your pardon, you didn't indeed. please go on
[15:37] Davidorban Agnon: These risks are opportunities as well. For fundamentally changing the way the SL economy works making sure that it goes farther, not closer to RL economy. As it allows much wider variabilty
[15:37] Hanako Nakamura: oh I'm glad to hear that!
[15:37] Davidorban Agnon: (I am cheating: I read your profile!) and the speed of experimentation
[15:38] Hanako Nakamura: :-) that's what it's there for
[15:38] Davidorban Agnon: to find among competing models which are the more adaptable as the multiplicity of metaverses captures the creativity and the time of the residents ... which brings me to the most fundamental current limits
[15:38] Davidorban Agnon: ... the metaverses are not for us. we are just here to make them be born, we catalyse them
[15:39] Hanako Nakamura: you see an independent, metaverse?
[15:39] Davidorban Agnon: but we are inadequate in many sense to bring them to full development, yes, it will be necessary and the reason is
[15:39] Hanako Nakamura: inhabited by AI?
[15:40] Davidorban Agnon: y
[15:40] Davidorban Agnon: the reason is that our RL connections are too strong and society, the traditional one, will reject a metaverse that pulls in too strongly
[15:40] Hanako Nakamura: as divisive? Un-real
[15:40] Davidorban Agnon: labelling the residents who get sucked in as addicts, as monomaniacal recluse
[15:41] Hanako Nakamura: :-)
[15:41] Davidorban Agnon: mad, sorry people instead of recognising what is being created
[15:41] Hanako Nakamura: (raises hand in recognition of a truth)
[15:41] Davidorban Agnon: and the traditional society will be right because almost all of these dedicated people
[15:41] Davidorban Agnon: will become martyrs and will self sacrifies in order to build what they will not be able to fully to create the new metaverse experience
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: yes
[15:42] Hanako Nakamura: ... wow
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: the variety of these spaces is millions of times more
[15:42] Hanako Nakamura: need to think a minute
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: that humans can experience
[15:42] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: and we will have to accept that.
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: Ok.
[15:43] Hanako Nakamura: real life limitations ;-)
[15:43] Davidorban Agnon: It is important to recognise them because than it will be more natural to hand over what we cannot control to friendly partners who are better equipped to develop and enrich these worlds and explore the noosphere that we started. We will still benefit. the various scenarios of apocalypitc destruction are just a silly nightmare
[15:44] Hanako Nakamura: agreed
[15:44] Davidorban Agnon: Even more strongly, the development of a friendly AI is going to be a necessary element of the survival of humanity. There will be those of us who will not mind changing so radically as to be rather different and then we will have the choice to change the definitions or to split the race, as an exploding jewel in millions of pieces that are only
[15:46] Hanako Nakamura: homo post-sapien
[15:46] Davidorban Agnon: loosely communicating I favor the changing of the definition to be more inclusive, and any sentient being should be there in the circle.This change will make it more likely that we will acccept any eventual non-local intelligence when we meet it too. So, back to LL
[15:47] Hanako Nakamura: :-)
[15:47] Davidorban Agnon: and their challenges. There are many and not all of them are guaranteed to be solvable. There will be pitfalls. And it is unlikely that nobody will be harmed, not physically but through loosing their investment in a version
[15:48] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[15:48] Davidorban Agnon: of SL x which will be superceeded by version x+1
[15:48] Hanako Nakamura: yup
[15:48] Davidorban Agnon: slightly different but enough for their economy not to make sense for example the current land speculators are in my opinion doomed as well as those
[15:49] Hanako Nakamura: agreed
[15:49] Davidorban Agnon: basic businesses which think that once you design

[15:50] Hanako Nakamura: may i?
[15:50] Davidorban Agnon: y
[15:50] Hanako Nakamura: now, you've thought this through on a much longer timescakle than I and I'm very very interested to hear your ideas. my interests are more imediate in scope though I see that they do in fact lead in the same direction to which you infer. I represent a number of avs here that loosely term themselves anarchists of one ilk or another. we have been gathering over the last few years (sorry, this is not an original AV) and forming ourselves, ironically perhaps, into a more structured body of thinking and action. we see the need to rethink the economy the way LL restricts SL from exploding with creativity and imagination. we see the need for open sourced servers in the very near term. there have been problems arising recently which LL have proved themselves to be unable to deal with, I speak of arbitrary actions on various forms of political expression here. inconsistant, and misplaced actions. now, I know that you are thinking way ahead of all that, but your ideas are not going to come true in a hurry I believe we are talking a hundred years or so
[15:57] Davidorban Agnon: :)
[15:58] Hanako Nakamura: not that they are wrong, you understand, just that there is a generation or two of flesh and blood metaverse inhabitants to come first. we are trying to make this, our second home, more ... agreeable for the duration of our tenantship do you think I have underestimated the speed of the transition you suggest?
[15:59] Davidorban Agnon: Ok. Personally I think that there will be parts of the change that will come sooner but it will not be homogeneous and omni-comprehensive (just like there are parts of the planet today that do not actually access SL)
[16:00] Hanako Nakamura: still in the 18th century
[16:00] Davidorban Agnon: We will see in my opinion parts of the world in this new condition within 20-25 years and at that point the speed of its development will accelerate. But that is an other point to your more immediate concern I have a couple of issues to address if I may
[16:01] Hanako Nakamura: be my guest
[16:01] Davidorban Agnon: The online world interacts with the offline world SL makes this much more transparent than the web but as efficiencies in economy, creativity, social aggregation, learning, education become undeniable and much greater online the offline world will not be able to ignore them. So your
[16:02] Hanako Nakamura: indeed
[16:02] Davidorban Agnon: desider to make SL your home should be part of creating and maintaining a Digital Identity and it is too important to trust it to just one medium as SL is today and to one company which is LL. Much more important, It is as big an investment as being born with the huge difference that you have control over it. Now, the value that you derive from this creation, of this rebirthing, is manyfold and undeniably part of the value comes from the fact that there are many many other people that you share the experience with and today SL is the best place to achieve this as no other virtual world is as free as this. to create. to experience. to live even if you would like it to be freer still. If you recognise this
[16:05] Hanako Nakamura: right, i see what you mean
[16:05] Davidorban Agnon: value in the social structure than you must strive to involve other members of your group and re-create this value on a more platform independent manner so that you don't depend on LL's whim meaning not just restricted to SL If you have coders in the group than you should start looking at OpenCroquet right away. LL does need competition too!
[16:07] Hanako Nakamura: I'll inquire
[16:07] Davidorban Agnon: Other tools are web2.0 tools that you can use. And for all of you who want to maintaing their SL identities that should not be a problem as long as the RL recognition of the SL advantages doesn't intrude too much
[16:08] Hanako Nakamura: hmm
[16:08] Davidorban Agnon: taking part of the shield away this is still an other issue. an example: if we close the client and forget to log the IM or don't use additional tools than the conversation is gone! This is silly. there are good web tools to chat without SL An other example: If you design a prim outside of SL and import it later for example using Google Sketch
[16:09] Hanako Nakamura: yes, i have thought the same, why can't you import it...
[16:09] Davidorban Agnon: than you can create a library that you depend on and not just within SL The open sourcing of the server will take time as the issues of DRM will have to be faced before and they are difficult also LL will have to change their business model as the land will not be limited anymore. Invent some new type of tax maybe on teleporting between multiverses or timekeeping
[16:11] Hanako Nakamura: doubt people would pay
[16:11] Davidorban Agnon: or value added services. yes, sure
[16:11] Hanako Nakamura: value added is the way
[16:11] Davidorban Agnon: it is their problem! I am just listing silly examples. Yes. the signs that OS servers are coming are going to be the release of tools that enable you to backup your SIM
[16:12] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[16:12] Davidorban Agnon: and third party development tools a community of tools and an ecology of developers on a more abstract level than just rezzing and scripting. I think that we will see these in the next 3-6 months and OS servers will come towards the end of the year.
[16:13] Hanako Nakamura: I had assumed pretty much the same re. time scale
[16:14] Hanako Nakamura: What do you do, Davidorban?
[16:14] Hanako Nakamura: If I may be so bold
[16:14] Davidorban Agnon: I am sitting on my chair in my livingroom
[16:14] Davidorban Agnon: :)
[16:14] Hanako Nakamura: :-)
[16:14] Hanako Nakamura: ok
[16:15] Hanako Nakamura: Are you involved with any groups that share your ideas?
[16:15] Davidorban Agnon: what are my ideas?
[16:15] Hanako Nakamura: deep and highly interesting
[16:15] Davidorban Agnon: well, thanks. I lecture about them
[16:15] Davidorban Agnon: and yes,people like to listen. and they do ask questions. I seldom answer even if sometimes that is the impression they get. I prefer raising further questions that have to be explored there are too many unknowns to start giving answers too early
[16:16] Hanako Nakamura: you do that very well, Davidorban. you say you lecture. do you do this in a formal setting.?
[16:17] Davidorban Agnon: It depends both in RL and in Sl Let me give you a few URLs
[16:17] Hanako Nakamura: ty
[16:17] Davidorban Agnon: so you get an idea
[16:17] Davidorban Agnon: Here are my slides: Here is my blog: You already have the Online ID profile I gave you before.
[16:18] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[16:18] Hanako Nakamura: ty
[16:18] Davidorban Agnon: I also post the transcript of my speeches in a podcast form as well.
[16:19] Hanako Nakamura: I see
[16:19] Davidorban Agnon: Were you thinking of talking to your group or something like that?
[16:19] Hanako Nakamura: I was thinking to write a report for them, yes
[16:19] Davidorban Agnon: well you are welcome to share any or all of what we said today
[16:20] Hanako Nakamura: now i wonder whether they wouldn't be better off to hear you in person
[16:20] Hanako Nakamura: ty
[16:20] Davidorban Agnon: Nothing is confidential of what I said. What would be good is to ask them
[16:20] Hanako Nakamura: thank you for confirming that
[16:20] Hanako Nakamura: same here of course
[16:20] Davidorban Agnon: if they would be interested after they read your report and I would be able and develop a track that might correspond more specifically to their interests
[16:21] Davidorban Agnon: for example anarchy itself or the role of technology in anarchy
[16:21] Hanako Nakamura: as it applies here... yes
[16:21] Davidorban Agnon: etc
[16:21] Hanako Nakamura: I'm sure there'd be a lot of interest
[16:22] Davidorban Agnon: Ok
[16:22] Hanako Nakamura: Davidorban, I really am gobsmacked and need to digest this at a more RL pace.
[16:22] Davidorban Agnon: sure. I understand
[16:22] Hanako Nakamura: I am extremely grateful for you having spared the time
[16:23] Davidorban Agnon: It was fun
[16:23] Hanako Nakamura: and would verymuch like to persue this a little later
[16:23] Hanako Nakamura: yes. it was certainly that
[16:23] Davidorban Agnon: Just let me know how things develop, and IM me any time.
[16:23] Hanako Nakamura: I will be doing that. Thank you Davidorban
[16:23] Davidorban Agnon: /bows
[16:24] Davidorban Agnon: Thank you...
[16:24] Hanako Nakamura: have an extremely nice day, Davidorban
[16:24] Hanako Nakamura: /bow
[16:24] Davidorban Agnon: You too, bye!
[16:24] Hanako Nakamura: bye

Who we are...

2007-02-19T18:36:00.000-08:00

This is an open manifesto, meaning it is open to editing by all and any of the SLA's members with agreement from two others.

(This document was last altered on Feb 26th 2007 by Hanako Nakamura)

SLanarchy (The Durruti Group) is a loose federation of sovereign individuals who share some of their many and various beliefs.
We have come into being as a result of a number of events and situations. Some of us came here from the Do not Buy Land Campaign, others from one or other of the 'established' Left wing groups, yet others from other Anarchy groups, the anti FNSL movement and some who just walked in off the street. The feeling amongst us is that we are approaching a critical point here in SL which will soon define its social direction and fabric. We'd like to have some say about that, and feel that we need to do so with some urgency.
Some of the ideas that we hold in common are listed below. There are probably others, but we'll stick to these for now.

We, the members of SLanarchy, believe that while SL should not be mistaken for reality, there are similarities which can be drawn. We also believe that some of these similarities should be adopted for use here and others rejected. Let's put it this way: This is Second Life..., not Real Life 2.

While we are happy to see that many aspects of SL are extremely anarchistic, we believe in a social system with even more minimal (note we didn't say 'zero') rules or restrictions. Were this RL, we would probably be arguing for a total ban on money and personal property. However, as SL has to exist within RL (like it or not) we see that for some strange reason, many require an incentive to create and expand this, our world, and that the opportunity to obtain such 'rewards' must be offered. It's a human thing.

We at SLanarchy therefore support the existence of L$, it's exchange and accumulation. We would, however, like to see this 'money' to be based on value added rather than opportunistic speculation which inherently implies the abuse of a privileged position to deprive a fellow SLitizen of the opportunity to purchase at the same price as the speculator paid. Call it "supply and demand" or" luck and determined effort" if you like. We call it ripping people off.

We also believe that supply and demand need not be a factor in a virtual economy, and that supply should never be outstripped by demand as the whole darned thing is virtual, for goodness sakes. Restricted supply is meaningless here. If something is wanted (even if not sometimes), it will be created somewhere. Once created, no more expense is required to knock off another 10 or another million.

The economy here runs like that already in all respects but one. That one is the most crucial of all. Land.

Land is restricted because LL declared it to be so.

Excuse us this digression:
While we laud LL for their foresight, and technical achievement in bringing SL to be, and find it hard to fault their stewardship of this world to date, we would argue that their management and interference in the goings on here are no longer appropriate nor required. We are sure that they're now able to retire to their virtual beach huts and mansions in the knowledge that their technical and managerial skills have allowed them to turn a hobby and a dream into a reality for millions with the potential to expand in directions and to extremes barely imagined by it's creators. These skills and the reputation that they were the creators of a whole world, no less, will also, we believe, enable them to live the rest of their lives at a level of opulence unknowable to 95% of this worlds inhabitants. Well done LL, you are free to retire now.

As we were saying:
LL has declared land to be in restricted supply. We at SLanarchy despise this and can't help but think that whatever they were taking when they made this decision was indeed some bad, bad shit indeed. As discussed a few sentences earlier, we see no need for this artificial lack of 'supply'. SLanarchy would like to propose that SLitizens are smart enough to create and manage their own worlds now, and call for LL to set free the tools required to embark on this unprecedented opportunity to enable every man, woman and child on the planet, to create their own parcel on this, the next digital frontier. Open the source code for the servers LL. Let us, the Slitizens, take on the burden of responsibility for our own future and the creation there of.

We have other areas of agreement too.
We believe that a certain amount of respect is due the people behind AVs here. Each and every one of them is a human being with a heart, a brain and feelings. We call for recognition of this in people's behaviour here for all it's faults. Let's take a couple of examples for sake of... examples.

Let's imagine a right-wing racial supremacist decides to expound his ideas here. Well, he should certainly be able to do so. On the other hand, if one were to think that the only way to challenge this person were to spread virtual shit all over their dwelling, we'd support that. You sir, have pissed of your fellow SLitizens. You really should know what the results of your actions are likely to lead to. Self responsibility. No need for regulation here.

SLanarchy believe that what ever forms of protest take place here, whether in the form of "armed" insurrection, metaphorical acts designed to impart an opinion or indeed acts of vandalism, such acts can never be categorised more seriously than graffiti would be in RL. No-one is hurt, no physical property is damaged. The worst that can be said to have happened is that an ego can be bruised.

SLanarchy. Free Land. Free SLife. Freedom of expression.

Power to the SLitizens!

2007-01-21T06:49:00.000-08:00

[13:38] Eileen Beresford is Online
[13:38] ARROW HEAD PLAT , TRI 1.5: Purple Rose Jewelry. Type /2help for a summary of the commands.
[13:38] PLATInum Onyx diamond ring for men 1.5: Purple Rose Jewelry. Type /2help for a summary of the commands.
[13:39] A group member named Ashcroft Burnham gave you Port Neualtenburg, Marktplatz, Funadama (46, 104, 30).
[13:41] Rin Tae: but why join at all?
[13:41] Lucinda Paine: then they can donate as they wish. why do you need a government for that?
[13:41] Ashcroft Burnham: The tools certainly won't mean that every SecondLifer will have to pay tax :-)
[13:41] PLATInum Onyx diamond ring for men 1.5: Going to sleep mode. Take me off and put back on to wake me up.
[13:41] ARROW HEAD PLAT , TRI 1.5: Going to sleep mode. Take me off and put back on to wake me up.
[13:41] Lucinda Paine: taxes are coercive by nature
[13:41] Davidorban Agnon: The universal tax would be by Linden Lab to decide that there aren-t free accounts anymore. But they won-t do that.
[13:42] Ludo Merit: Rin, I woujld join a government for the advantages it offers. Bad governments won't get members
[13:42] Lucinda Paine: how is that different than a sim?
[13:42] Rin Tae: what benefit offers a gouvernement in SL?
[13:42] Lex Mertel: I wonder if governments should be allowed to charge taxes on a case-by-case basis, or if they must treat all equally. I could certainly see popular businesses offered subsidies to help bring traffic to the area.
[13:42] DrugiZane Something: who of course decides what is a good and bad government
[13:42] DrugiZane Something: ?
[13:42] Hug Yue: Yes, that is what I would like to know
[13:42] Dnali Anabuki: it would be nice to have a sim councel
[13:42] Ashcroft Burnham: Lucinda, nobody will have to join a government, so nobody is being coerced :-) Governments in SecondLife will necessarily be based on literal social contracts: people voluntarily give up freedoms in order that they can enjoy the benefits of others doing the same.
[13:42] Hug Yue: Would just cost us money
[13:42] Davidorban Agnon: Tax-free governments can be popular in the sense that they attract a lot of citizens, but ineffective, if their revenue base makes them unable to act.
[13:42] Hug Yue: Oh, give up freedoms, sounds like RL
[13:43] Ashcroft Burnham: Lex: that's an interesting idea, and ought be possible if the tools were configurable enough.
[13:43] Rin Tae: but what is a gouvenement other than a simple group?
[13:43] Dnali Anabuki: people who can organize would dominate those who don't
[13:43] DrugiZane Something: another issue is that laws etc have to be decided on the norms and values of a community and norms and values are very different things all obver SL
[13:43] Lucinda Paine: ashcroft - or to put it another way, people's rights are taken away, but they can get a reward if they consent.
[13:43] Ashcroft Burnham: Rin: look at the tools proposals and you will see :-)
[13:43] Roo Rosca: yes, we give up the freedom to murder our neighbors so that we can live free from being murdered. This is nothing new.
[13:43] Rin Tae: I have
[13:43] Lucinda Paine: ashcroft: all due respect, who are you to decide this for others?
[13:44] Ashcroft Burnham: Drugi: that's why it's a good idea to let there be any number of governments, so that people can gravitate to the systems that they agree with :-)
[13:44] Hug Yue: Nobody has murdered me
[13:44] Lucinda Paine: or this body at all?
[13:44] Lucinda Paine: this sounds suspect to me.
[13:44] You decline Port Neualtenburg, Marktplatz, Funadama (46, 104, 30) from A group member named Ashcroft Burnham.
[13:44] Ashcroft Burnham: Lucinda, that's not an accurate analysis of government, since governments protect rights, rather than take them away.
[13:44] Ludo Merit: Ashcroft isn't deciding he's proposing
[13:44] Lem Skall: all hail Lucinda!
[13:44] Dnali Anabuki: true, what is motivating this Ashcroft? What do you see as the benefits?
[13:44] Ashcroft Burnham: Lucinda, I'm not deciding anything for anybody :-)
[13:44] Roo Rosca: Lucinda, if you don't like his proposals you can start your own group. :) but he's not forcing anyone to pay taxes or do anything else.
[13:45] Eileen Beresford: Question
[13:45] Davidorban Agnon: Ashcroft: 30 will be a big issue with Linden Lab as today they are associating all economic ownership with individual accounts.
[13:45] Lucinda Paine: ashcroft, are you in negotation with LL regarding this?
[13:45] Lem Skall: Ashcroft<> opensource servers are the answer to that
[13:52] Hug Yue: Just another layer of taxes on us.
[13:52] Lucinda Paine: why not just have Manifest Destiny as well?
[13:52] Rin Tae: anarchy is a political system in itself
[13:53] Rin Tae: none would be better
[13:53] Lady Smashcan: Gomu: to some extent yes
[13:53] You: Rin > agreed
[13:53] Lucinda Paine: Slavery sounds great! Let's put the Goreans in charge!
[13:53] Dnali Anabuki: but this is a creative world and that is always chaotic
[13:53] Lucinda Paine: /snicker
[13:53] Ashcroft Burnham: Anybody who'd like to talk, please stand.
[13:53] Eileen Beresford is Offline
[13:53] You: I'm standing
[13:53] Dnali Anabuki: we are artists here, creative people...
[13:53] Lucinda Paine: so you're president now, ashcroft?
[13:53] Ludo Merit: Gomu?
[13:54] You: yes
[13:54] Ashcroft Burnham: Chair of the meeting, Lucinda :-)
[13:54] Dnali Anabuki: we come here as a respite from being governed by the mediocre
[13:54] Prokofy Neva: good point Dnali
[13:54] Ludo Merit: Gomu requested the floor
[13:54] Lucinda Paine: sounds like "dictator," Ashcdroft
[13:54] Rachel Aldrich: Lucinda, are you just an alt created to stir up dissention?
[13:54] Dnali Anabuki: why create the same pain here, the same limits?
[13:54] Ashcroft Burnham: Gomu, you have the floor :-)
[13:54] You: may I speak for a moment?
[13:54] Roo Rosca: Lucinda if you don't like the topic of HIS meeting, then leave already. you're being annoying.
[13:54] Lucinda Paine: sorry, please Gomu
[13:54] Dnali Anabuki: good luck all!
[13:54] Hug Yue: I agree with Dnali
[13:54] You: ty mr. chairman
[13:54] Lem Skall: so this is HIS meeting?
[13:55] You: I believe that the crucial point we need to consider
[13:55] Ludo Merit: Gomu has the floor
[13:55] Lem Skall: what are we doing here?
[13:55] Roo Rosca: He put it together as well as the initial ideas, so at least let the man speak already.
[13:55] Lucinda Paine: i have a right to be present at a meeting that may decide the future of avs as much as any of you.
[13:55] You: is whether there is a point in governance at all if it's run by LL
[13:55] Ashcroft Burnham: Can we have some order, please? Gomu has the floor.
[13:55] Lady Smashcan: nobody stops anybody to speak in this enviroment.
[13:56] You: I believe that were LL to release source code, thereby freeing 'land ownership'
[13:56] Lucinda Paine: already we have someone controlling who can speak. great.
[13:56] You: each sim could be free to run itself in the way it wants
[13:56] Prokofy Neva: they claim that they will go on maintaining a mainland Gomu, but this remains to be seen
[13:56] Ashcroft Burnham: Lucinda, please don't be disruptive. We can't have a meeting with everybody talking at once.
[13:56] Ashcroft Burnham: The same goes to you, Prokofy.
[13:57] Lady Smashcan: i agrea with Lucinda, talk and if ppl wanna listen its by the talkers merit
[13:57] You: is that so, Neva. very interesting
[13:57] Lucinda Paine: who made you dictator, ashcroft? nice name by the way.
[13:57] Lucinda Paine: sorry, i will yield though.
[13:57] Lucinda Paine: /bows before her lord :p
[13:58] Rachel Aldrich sighs
[13:58] Simstick Boram: but it might be years away
[13:58] Lucinda Paine: ty Lady
[13:58] Ashcroft Burnham: (Gomu, have you finished? :-) )
[13:58] You: so. does anybody else want to see open source servers?
[13:58] Ashcroft Burnham: (Sorry...)
[13:58] Lucinda Paine: (i do... why are we whispering?)
[13:59] Ludo Merit: I believe there are people who want to.
[13:59] You: I beleive it's essential to the question of governence here
[13:59] Prokofy Neva: That's one of the things we won't have a whole lot of choice about, they will decide unless we do stuff like lobby for a seat on the board collectively as tier-payers.
[13:59] Ludo Merit: ?
[13:59] Lucinda Paine: (oh the king told us too, i'llbe quiet now)
[13:59] Julian Molinaro: What did I miss?
[13:59] kimmy Kit is Offline
[13:59] Lex Mertel: Gomu: I would, partly for technical reasons (companies wouldn't have to rely on LL to keep the machines up and running), and partly for legal reasons
[14:00] You: Lex> I understand yr reasoning
[14:00] xyryx Simca: A seat on the board will never happen. Please direct your energy elsewhere.
[14:00] Lex Mertel: (LL might get bought out and change their policies.)
[14:00] Lucinda Paine: (i think the landed gentry wants to control the surfdom julian)
[14:00] Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you for your contribution, Gomu :-) I had intended the tools to be able to work without needing open-source servers, but, of course, they'd be even more important if servers were to be open-sourced.
[14:00] Julian Molinaro dances defiantly on the table
[14:00] Lady Smashcan: So tierpayers are mor democratic in this govement?
[14:00] Ashcroft Burnham: Does anyone else want the floor on the issue of opensource servers? :-)
[14:00] Davidorban Agnon: Yes
[14:00] Prokofy Neva: Oh, it's had a tremendous effect already just asking the question and getting the RL media to ask it, it's all good.
[14:00] Davidorban Agnon: I would like the floor
[14:00] Clare Dowding: Just to say I agree
[14:00] You: ty Mr. Chairman
[14:00] Julian Molinaro: i don't need the florr when I'm standing on the table!
[14:00] Julian Molinaro: Bad humor, I know.
[14:01] Ashcroft Burnham: Davidorban, yuou have the floor :-)
[14:01] Davidorban Agnon: Thanks!
[14:01] Prokofy Neva: what flag are you flying Julian?
[14:01] Julian Molinaro: The red and black flag of anarchism
[14:01] Davidorban Agnon: I have been at Linden Lab on Thursday
[14:01] Prokofy Neva: sigh
[14:01] Davidorban Agnon: and we did indeed speak about open sourcing the servers
[14:01] Ashcroft Burnham: :-D
[14:01] Davidorban Agnon: it is definitely going to happen
[14:01] Prokofy Neva: uh-oh -- "we"?
[14:02] Ashcroft Burnham: You heard it here first, folks :-)
[14:02] Lucinda Paine: (thanks for maintaining order Mr. Let the Eagle Soar)
[14:02] Prokofy Neva: Wow, they told you a secret they didn't tell us!
[14:02] Davidorban Agnon: but it will take a longish time
[14:02] Rachel Aldrich: Be nice Lucinda
[14:02] Julian Molinaro: lol lucinda
[14:02] Davidorban Agnon: Not likely within the end of the year
[14:02] Prokofy Neva: no, that's bollocks, they said it in Davos openly to the public
[14:02] You: Agnon> can we talk 1 to 1 later?
[14:02] Davidorban Agnon: the biggest issue
[14:02] You have offered friendship to Davidorban Agnon
[14:02] Prokofy Neva: and have said it all along, don't pretend to be "in like Finn" lol
[14:02] Davidorban Agnon: is the chain of ownership, and associated rights
[14:02] Davidorban Agnon: with the prims in a given sim
[14:03] Davidorban Agnon: their utmost concern is the control of the economy
[14:03] Davidorban Agnon: on which LL as a viable corporation relies
[14:03] You: the economy will be fine
[14:03] Hug Yue: Ah, here it comes, the money thing again....
[14:03] Prokofy Neva: Robin Linden spoke of these issues also at her open office hours yesterday.
[14:03] Davidorban Agnon: Their rights management works
[14:03] Ashcroft Burnham: Davidorban has the floor...
[14:03] You: seperate it from Land prices and it'll be fine
[14:03] Davidorban Agnon: because of the system being closed on the server side
[14:03] You: apologies
[14:04] Redaktisto Noble: What agenda item are we on?
[14:04] Davidorban Agnon: There are some tools that are coming
[14:04] kimmy Kit is Online
[14:04] Madeleine Fitzgerald: IMHO: I t ' s a l l a b o u t m o n e y.
[14:04] Ashcroft Burnham: No. 1 :-)
[14:04] Davidorban Agnon: to make sure that this can be properly managed
[14:04] Davidorban Agnon: the first ones should be relative to the possibility of properly backing up
[14:04] Davidorban Agnon: property and sims
[14:04] Davidorban Agnon is Online
[14:04] Hug Yue: Yes, "Properly Managed" by whome?
[14:04] Davidorban Agnon: by the owners
[14:04] Lucinda Paine: ty, hug
[14:05] Lucinda Paine: so owners have more rights than non-owners?
[14:05] Madeleine Fitzgerald: You betcha, Lucinda.
[14:05] Hug Yue: Those of you who know history know that only land owners could vote here is the U.S. at one point
[14:05] Julian Molinaro wonders the same thing as Lucinda
[14:05] Prokofy Neva: well the owners of prims do have more rights than the non-owners of those prims, yes.
[14:06] Julian Molinaro: WHITE landowners
[14:06] Lucinda Paine: i think i read about that once, hug
[14:06] Ashcroft Burnham: Davidorban still has teh floor.
[14:06] Davidorban Agnon: We have to remember that this whole world only works if LL is a viable corporation.
[14:06] Julian Molinaro: Not true, Hug
[14:06] Hug Yue: Oh yes, Male white land owners, I forgot
[14:06] Lem Skall: well, thanks everyone, this has been real interesting
[14:06] Madeleine Fitzgerald: I agree, Davidorban. Enthusiastically.
[14:06] Davidorban Agnon: There are already open source virtual world platforms
[14:06] Lucinda Paine: david: not true if there's open source.
[14:06] Lucinda Paine: false concept.
[14:06] Davidorban Agnon: but their traction is currently minuscule
[14:06] Davidorban Agnon: with respect to SL
[14:06] DrugiZane Something: All this could lead to descrimination against noobs and furrys in certain governments
[14:07] Davidorban Agnon: If we can achieve interoperability
[14:07] Julian Molinaro: Yes, Drugizane
[14:07] Davidorban Agnon: while maintaining private property rights
[14:07] Davidorban Agnon: then the economy will explode thousandfols
[14:07] Julian Molinaro: there is already a noteable amount of discriminiation already
[14:07] Davidorban Agnon: with the opportunity there for everybody to choose and participate
[14:07] You: I agree with Davidorbane
[14:08] Davidorban Agnon: and create their own worlds, and governments (or lack of)
[14:08] You: hear hear
[14:08] DrugiZane Something: 'gorians' already have a no furry policy in many of their sims so i'm told, laws and rules of governance will make said easier
[14:08] Davidorban Agnon: So we have to work with LL, and make them succeed. In my opinion.
[14:08] You: No central LL governance
[14:08] Madeleine Fitzgerald: I agree, Davidoban.
[14:08] You: Universal Suffrage
[14:08] Davidorban Agnon: LL don't want to become a government themselves
[14:08] You: Free servers
[14:08] Madeleine Fitzgerald: Davidorban*
[14:08] Davidorban Agnon: they want to remain a platform.
[14:09] Lucinda Paine: drugi: that's never the way laws work.
[14:09] Prokofy Neva: I'd favour the federal government establishing a rule of law with certain basic norms of civilization and having states' rights, I wouldn't throw central government out the door just to have a million Balkanized warlord-run states with slavery and violence in them.
[14:09] Prokofy Neva: but hey, that's just me.
[14:09] Davidorban Agnon: Thank you.
[14:09] Lucinda Paine: laws are designed to oppress and control.
[14:09] DrugiZane Something: Not in modern democratic societies no
[14:09] Prokofy Neva: David, you *do* realize that you aren't getting any special insiders' info? This is just the company line? As it has been told countless times?
[14:09] Madeleine Fitzgerald: Laws evolve from behavior and custom said Weber.
[14:09] You: I would, Neva
[14:09] DrugiZane Something: but why should SL be anchored by RL norms?
[14:09] Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you very much to Davidorban for a very interesting address :-)
[14:09] Julian Molinaro: Prokofy, get over yourself
[14:09] Julian Molinaro thinks Lucinda is right
[14:09] Davidorban Agnon: Thanks, Prokofy.
[14:09] Lucinda Paine: drugi: yes, in democratic societies as well.
[14:10] Prokofy Neva: Note: the same thing was said by Robin and by Mitch Kapor, if you don't have that material, look on my blog
[14:10] Lucinda Paine: well, laws and governments are rl norms, last time i looked.
[14:10] Prokofy Neva: What you should have tried to use your special audience at the lab for, David, was to represent other people with the same interests, for example, if you believe in democratic governance
[14:10] Ashcroft Burnham: It doesn't matter whether we're getting special insider information or not - it's very interesting information all the same, and many of us here might not have known it already.
[14:10] Lady Smashcan: i think ppl with democretic patos should emigrate from SL when open source and free alternative is avalible. Those who prefere a economicbased viritual world may find it fine here but its strange and wrong to discuss govements as a good thing if based on tierholding or anything els than user under LL as a working company
[14:10] Julian Molinaro: Keep RL out of SL!
[14:10] Simstick Boram: That Mitch Kapor interview at Rueters was very in depth
[14:10] Prokofy Neva: and you might have asked what the plan is for those who own islands but don't wish to host their own; and those who own parts of sims who don't wish to go with the majority owners' "covenant" etc etc
[14:11] Ashcroft Burnham: Now, what was the next tool-related issue that people wanted to discuss - anyone? :-)
[14:11] Prokofy Neva: there are LOTS and LOTS of problems in OS
[14:11] Lucinda Paine: ty lady!
[14:11] Madeleine Fitzgerald: Ash. Whatever transpires, I admire you for your adherence to structure and your agenda.
[14:11] Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you Madeline :-)
[14:11] Davidorban Agnon: Prokofy, my meeting was about other things as well. I didn't go as an ambassador of these issues, but your points are important of course.
[14:11] Lucinda Paine: government for all or no government at all!
[14:12] Prokofy Neva: Well I'm glad you've established an oh-so-special relationship with the Lab, David!
[14:12] Prokofy Neva: I do hope they pay you for your consulting services and don't GOM your ideas for free at least1
[14:12] Rachel Aldrich: Be nice Prokofy
[14:12] Multi Gadget v1.50.0 by Timeless Prototype
[14:12] Julian Molinaro: How about no government at all?
[14:12] Davidorban Agnon: Yes, I am too.
[14:12] Madeleine Fitzgerald: I suggest we let Ash catch his breath and give us direction. This is his group, after all.
[14:12] Julian Molinaro: I mean, SL taxes? Blechh.
[14:12] You have offered friendship to Lady Smashcan
[14:12] Ashcroft Burnham: Has everyone now had a chance to read all the tools suggestions?
[14:13] Lucinda Paine: I still contend that this meeting is undemocratic by nature.
[14:13] Ashcroft Burnham: Lucinda, please don't be disruptive.
[14:13] Khamon Fate: that won't happen julian, we have government now based on land ownership and ultimately server ownership
[14:13] Lucinda Paine: Anybody involved with teh planning of thsi should be ashamed.
[14:14] Hug Yue: Yes, ashamed!
[14:14] Julian Molinaro: Power to the plebes of SL, not the patricians!
[14:14] Khamon Fate: linden lab won't charge inworld taxes again
[14:14] Lucinda Paine: servers can be distributed, khamon
[14:14] Prokofy Neva: Yes Lucinda, I tend to agree, a group on governance needs multiple officers, and the right to circulate proposals, I'm only here to see how many sheep will actually follow Ashcroft and whether people should work in other groups instead.
[14:14] Multi Gadget v1.50.0 by Timeless Prototype
[14:14] Ashcroft Burnham: Now, has everyone had a chance to read all the governance tools suggestions?
[14:14] Khamon Fate: yes but the people that own them will be in charge at that point
[14:14] Ashcroft Burnham: (Let's not get side-tracked by the anarchist protestors :-) )
[14:15] Prokofy Neva: No, by all means, let's stick with the oligarchs controlling the agenda LOL.
[14:15] Julian Molinaro: cute, ashcroft
[14:15] Julian Molinaro: Notice how I'm the ONLY anarchist here?
[14:15] Khamon Fate: i have a t-shirt you can wear julian
[14:15] Ashcroft Burnham: (It's all very nice to have a little protest to make us feel all important, but we're here to discuss tools after all :-) )
[14:15] Lucinda Paine: ashcroft: this is a public meeting, about how *we* will be governed or not governed.
[14:15] Julian Molinaro: lol Khamon
[14:16] Lucinda Paine: no reason to get sectarian and inslting, ashcroft.
[14:16] Julian Molinaro nods sagely
[14:16] You: Nova isn't anarchist, she's totalitarian
[14:16] Lucinda Paine: very un-democratic of you
[14:16] Ashcroft Burnham: Now, if there aren't any furtehr ideas about tools, I'd like to start on an issue about my tools ideas that James Seraph raised in a notecard.
[14:16] Prokofy Neva: Day-old alts don't tend to build trust in a meeting like this though Lucinda, that's the problem lol.
[14:17] Prokofy Neva: Well can we linger for a minute on the very "methods of work" of this group, Ashcroft?
[14:17] Lex Mertel: As far as the tools go, I'm concerned that governments will not be able to enforce contracts, etc. since they won't have access to an avatar's true identity. Also, I'm concerned that in-world contract laws might conflict with 1st-life contracts.
[14:17] Prokofy Neva: why only one officer, and one person who can distribute information? this is undemocratic by nature
[14:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Lex, you have the floor :-)
[14:17] Lucinda Paine: well, profoky - i don't tend to trust my future to people who want to take it away. I'm funny lik that. lol
[14:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, don't be disruptive.
[14:17] Prokofy Neva: Perhaps it's disruptive to the project of democratic governance itself to be autocratic in discussing it, Ashcroft.
[14:18] Prokofy Neva: I think you're facing a certain amount of civil disobedience to your autocratic methods here.
[14:18] You: long live civil disobedience
[14:18] Prokofy Neva: But there are a lot of cranks and sectarians in SL -- the wonder is why David Orban countenances this and has been co-opted. ??
[14:18] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, we are here to have a meeting. Lex has teh floor.
[14:18] Lucinda Paine: perhaps just a bit, prokofy.
[14:19] Lucinda Paine: don't even think of throwing us a bone to pacify us, ashcroft.
[14:19] Lucinda Paine: it doesn't work in rl, and it won't work here.
[14:19] You: go lex
[14:19] Lex Mertel: I don't really have much more to say.
[14:19] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, all right :-)
[14:19] Lucinda Paine: a meeting to decide our future...
[14:19] Ashcroft Burnham: Lex, have you looked through all the tool suggestions yet?
[14:20] Khamon Fate: khamon grundy want tool selections too
[14:20] Ashcroft Burnham: What are you under the impression could happen to people who, for example, act in breach of contract?
[14:20] Julian Molinaro: Breach of contract?
[14:20] Lex Mertel: I skimmed over the forum posts, but I haven't had time to digest them. What if I contract with
[14:20] Lady Smashcan: lol, this meeting have no authority if we dont give it that. and if we do its our decision.
[14:20] Julian Molinaro: More authoritarian by the minute
[14:21] Lucinda Paine: first lawyers, then cops. what next? secret police?
[14:21] Lex Mertel: an in-world avatar to build a house for me, and that avatar breaches? Would
[14:21] You: go on lex
[14:21] Lex Mertel: U.S. contract law have jurisdiction? Or that of the in-world govt?
[14:21] Lucinda Paine: lady: all of us tho, not just the 15 or so avs in this room
[14:21] Ashcroft Burnham: Well, concievably, there might be concurrent jurisdiction :-)
[14:21] Lady Smashcan: why build a govement with byrocrasy and repression ? for what need?
[14:22] Lucinda Paine: plutocracy is authoritarian.
[14:22] You: may I attempt to answer Lex?
[14:22] Lex Mertel: Regardless of what we say, the 1-st life govt courts could disagree.
[14:22] Julian Molinaro: fireworks!
[14:22] Julian Molinaro: Woo hoo!
[14:22] Prokofy Neva: you can dim out anarchy by moving particle counts to 0 *shrugs*
[14:22] Lex Mertel: And they'd have the means to enforce.
[14:22] Lucinda Paine: ask ashcroft that lady. he appears to be king for the day here. lol
[14:22] Lex Mertel: Gomu: go ahead.
[14:22] Julian Molinaro dances some more
[14:22] Ashcroft Burnham: Lex, so would in-world governments
[14:22] Julian Molinaro: Anarchy>
[14:22] Ashcroft Burnham: (Thanks for the tip, Prokfoy)
[14:22] Julian Molinaro: ?
[14:22] Julian Molinaro: The person who launched that wasn't an anarchist.
[14:23] Julian Molinaro: Silly child.
[14:23] Prokofy Neva: oh they were a crypto-monarchist?
[14:23] Ashcroft Burnham: Everyone, CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+ =
[14:23] Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
[14:23] Prokofy Neva: a pseudo-socialist?
[14:23] You: Lex > If you contracted me to build for you, maybe approaching me through a guild would ensure a minimum quality of work
[14:23] Prokofy Neva: ah, the Luddites are back!
[14:23] You: If I reneged on a contract, maybe you would not have paid me anything until completion
[14:24] Ashcroft Burnham: The interesting thing, though, is that it doesn't actually matter whether first life courts disagree or not.
[14:24] Lady Smashcan: hide particles...
[14:24] You: maybe escrow is a safe system
[14:24] Julian Molinaro: SL luddites?
[14:24] Julian Molinaro: Methinks you don't know who the Luddites were.
[14:24] You: if a legal sit arises where a contract hasd been signed (I assume you will have exchanged this out world too)
[14:24] Ashcroft Burnham: Supposing that there was a contract between X and Y: a first-life court held it unenforcable, and a court of a government wtihin SL held it enforcable: then, it'd just be enforced through the mechansisms of SL, by banishment from land under the control of that government, forfeiture of liquid escrow, adding negative reputation, and so forth.
[14:25] Lucinda Paine: you do realize that all this legalese will only make lawyers want to participate in sl, right?
[14:25] You: RL law would apply would it not?
[14:25] Lex Mertel: I agree there are other ways for in-world enforcement. But the general notion of conflict of laws will get really crazy when you have different in-world governments dealing with multiple real-world governments. Usury laws, fraud, etc. All different and possibly irreconcilable.
[14:25] Lucinda Paine: turn this into a bureaucracy, and watch them flee...
[14:25] Prokofy Neva: There's already a lot of RL lawyers all over SL.
[14:25] Julian Molinaro: unfortunately
[14:25] Lucinda Paine: 0.00000001%, prokofy?
[14:25] Lucinda Paine: typical if so
[14:26] Ashcroft Burnham: Conversely, if that contract was held enforcable by a first life court, but not in by one of a SecondLife jurisdiction, then only first-life enforcement means would apply: first-life courts lack the jurisdiction to banish people from SecondLife sims just as SecondLife courts would lack the jurisdiction to seize real-life assets :-)
[14:26] Lucinda Paine: an elite making decisions for the unwashed masses. just like this meeting.
[14:26] Julian Molinaro: yup
[14:26] Prokofy Neva: Well, I say the parties of the first part and the parties of the second party should have a party.
[14:26] Lucinda Paine: what a farce.
[14:26] Khamon Fate: we *have* avoided bureaucracy though prok, working with the Linden Royal Court doesn't require it
[14:27] Khamon Fate: she's right about that
[14:27] Prokofy Neva: it depends on what the landowners establish as frontier law on their sims.
[14:27] Ashcroft Burnham: Lex, as to conflicts of laws, the tools are designed to allow commonwealths, and such organisations, designed to minimise the adverse effects of such things :-)
[14:27] Lucinda Paine: wow, look at this:
[14:27] Prokofy Neva: The main thing to look out here, before anybody logs off, is the problem of Ashcroft's Entity wanting everyone to put up their land as collateral to obtain justice, Ashcroft style.
[14:27] Ashcroft Burnham: However, it's better to have conflicting laws than no laws, or possibility of ever having any :-)
[14:27] Lucinda Paine: Ashcroft is a member of the english bar. :)
[14:27] Lucinda Paine: Pracsising member of the English Bar in London. NOTE: The above is for informational purposes only. For the avoidance of doubt, I do not hold myself out as a barrister for the purpose of any activity that I undertake in SecondLife.
[14:28] Ashcroft Burnham: Lucinda, please don't be disruptive.
[14:28] Prokofy Neva: Well, maybe if Ashcroft keeps *practicing* law, he might get it right! It's like getting to Carnegie Hall!
[14:28] Lucinda Paine: another lawyer trying to ruin our second life as much as our first.
[14:28] Ashcroft Burnham: Anything else on conflicts of laws before we move on? :-)
[14:28] Julian Molinaro: lol Lucinda
[14:28] You have offered friendship to Ashcroft Burnham
[14:28] Lucinda Paine: ashcroft: people have a right to know what you stand for.
[14:29] Ashcroft Burnham is Online
[14:29] Julian Molinaro: Have you ever heard of 'confirmation bias,' Ashcroft?
[14:29] Julian Molinaro: You're only choosing to process info that you agree with.
[14:29] Ashcroft Burnham: Lucinda: I stand for meetings that are not disrupted by people who want to prevent people talking about the thing that the meeting was convened to discuss in the first place.
[14:29] Prokofy Neva: Ashcroft and David Orban, have you discussed the problem of Philip Linden needing to sign a Magna Carta yet?
[14:30] Ashcroft Burnham: Nobody else on conflicts of laws?
[14:30] Julian Molinaro: Ashcroft, if you want to talk about things that only affect you, fine.
[14:30] Prokofy Neva: you know, getting rid of this unlawful seizure of property without due process
[14:30] Prokofy Neva: that *was* on conflict of laws
[14:30] Julian Molinaro: BUT
[14:30] Prokofy Neva: there's the king and then the aspirations of the serfs
[14:30] Lady Smashcan: Ashcroft, noone is disrupting here bringing their views' exept the nuker maby. noone has spammed for exampel you are free to mute anyone if you dont like them
[14:30] Julian Molinaro: If you want to talk about placing the yoke of government and
[14:30] Lucinda Paine: well, ashcroft. given that you are tryng to decide things that affect millions of people without their knowledge or consent, you're little more than a griefer.
[14:30] Julian Molinaro: taxation around our necks,
[14:30] Julian Molinaro: it's OUR business too!
[14:30] Lucinda Paine: you can call yourself a soccer hooligan tho if you like.
[14:31] xyryx Simca: floor please?
[14:31] Ashcroft Burnham: Moving on from the conflict of laws, James Seraph raised an interesting point in a notecard to the group.
[14:31] Lucinda Paine: this meeting is illegitimate by definition.
[14:31] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, yes, xyryx, you have the floor :-)
[14:31] Ludo Merit: OK, why don't all you nay-sayers go off and come up with a better way of us doing the things we need for protection that the Lindens won't do for us, and let us talk about the proposals being made.
[14:32] Ashcroft Burnham: Lucinda, anyone can have any meeting they like to discuss anything that tthey like.
[14:32] You: symca seconded
[14:32] xyryx Simca: I suggest that a preliminary vote of confidence or no confidence could be taken...by leaving if you find no to little value in the tools and governance proffered here
[14:32] Julian Molinaro: We've been over this, Ashcroft.
[14:32] Lucinda Paine: ashcroft, that's not the way social dynamics work in sl and you know it. stop playing games.
[14:32] Lucinda Paine: sorry, floor, whatever.
[14:32] Ludo Merit: Great, then the rest of us can get something done, Lucinda
[14:32] Ludo Merit: I mean exyyss
[14:33] Julian Molinaro: Your meeting proposes affecting everyone on SL through Governments nad taxes
[14:33] Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, I quite agree.
[14:33] Lucinda Paine: not your world to rule ludo.
[14:33] Julian Molinaro: Therefore, it has become EVERYONE's meeting.
[14:33] Ashcroft Burnham: Not your meeting to disrupt, Lucinda.
[14:33] Prokofy Neva: I cast a basic no-confidence vote in Ashcroft because he doesn't have the basic democratic rules for a group, so I intend to work on these issues in the group I have, which has multiple officers and the right of anyone to post notices.
[14:33] Rachel Aldrich: Lucinda, what a lovely hat,... wherever did you get it?
[14:34] Julian Molinaro: If you want to keep repeating yourself, Ashcroft
[14:34] Julian Molinaro: I can too
[14:34] Lucinda Paine: show me 100% open source servers, then we can talk about governance - until then , this is a dictatorship in the works.
[14:34] Julian Molinaro: Prokofy, good idea
[14:34] Prokofy Neva: in fact it will be even after OS
[14:34] Lucinda Paine: ty prokofy
[14:34] DrugiZane Something: It was from the start i feel,Ashcroft is mediating to try and bring some form and structure
[14:35] You: I support Ashcroft in his forsight in holding this meeting at all
[14:35] Ashcroft Burnham: Since the only person with ban powers here is offline, I suggest that we all mute Julian and Lucinda.
[14:35] Ludo Merit: Unsuccessfully because of nay-sayers, and I want to discuss substantive issues.
[14:35] Julian Molinaro: Your meeting proposes affecting everyone on SL through governments and taxes, Therefore, it has become EVERYONE's meeting.
[14:35] Ashcroft Burnham: Who are obviously here with the sole purpose of disrupting the meeting, rather than participating in it.
[14:35] You: i donot support that, Ashcroft
[14:35] You: !!
[14:36] Ludo Merit: No it doesn't Julian, no more than any other meeting anyone might have
[14:36] Lucinda Paine: i can't be in support of such a plan. and i intend to tell as many people as possible about your dealcutting wtih LL, as well as your lawyerly dictatorship
[14:36] Simstick Boram: I support it and did it 20 minutes ago
[14:36] Lucinda Paine: i agree with julian
[14:36] You: :-)
[14:36] Xela Veranes: Mr. Molinario, wouldit not be apropriate to get off the table and accept that your are the same as all off us.?
[14:36] Lucinda Paine: ludo this is not a dance party.
[14:36] Julian Molinaro: Anyone SL government WILL be destroyed, mark my words.
[14:36] You: listen to other people's ops Boram
[14:37] You: you might hear something interesting
[14:37] Xela Veranes: What makes you so important to stand on the table with a flag?
[14:37] Xela Veranes: Looks like a show to me.
[14:37] Julian Molinaro: Oh, shut up Xela. There are far more important issues than my being on a table.
[14:37] Lady Smashcan: Ashcroft, if you build a 'govement' out of yhis its your freedom under your land and those who like to follow you. if expanded to things that influens me i will go against you. interesting eh?
[14:37] Rachel Aldrich: Oh don't burst his bubble, he's having fun the dear
[14:37] Xela Veranes: Like you?
[14:37] Ashcroft Burnham: Right, I have muted Lucinda and Julian, and suggest that everyone do the same.
[14:37] You: is anyone actually looking at anything other than the text window?
[14:37] You: who cares where he stands
[14:38] Prokofy Neva: It goes against the populist grain to admit that governance tools have to hinge on land ownership, but that's how it is set up
[14:38] Ashcroft Burnham: Now, James Seraph sent an interesting notecard to the group with some issues about the original tool suggestions.
[14:38] Prokofy Neva: I think those that have ideas for how non-owners can organize and govern themselves and have influence need to make other groups
[14:38] Lucinda Paine: why don't you ask ashcroft that question? He's a lawyer, maybe he can find a legal precedent to call in MI5 for seditious table-standing.
[14:38] Lady Smashcan: then Ashcroft cant be the leader of this discussion.
[14:38] Prokofy Neva: In my group I have to face the facts that landowners are the only ones who can control their fate even a bit in SL.
[14:38] Julian Molinaro is thankful that Gomu at least has any sense, unlike others present.
[14:38] Ashcroft Burnham: His notecard is in the group archives - who would like me to copy it to them?
[14:38] Lucinda Paine: ty prokofy
[14:39] Ralph Radius: I'd like a copy.
[14:39] Prokofy Neva: A government that progresses by executing people at dawn -- muting their very speech -- can ultimately not succeed.
[14:39] Redaktisto Noble: Prokofy but what is an owner - someone who pas LL or someone who pays Anshe? And how about cooperatively owned land?
[14:39] Prokofy Neva: I would include all of them as owners
[14:39] Lady Smashcan: [14:38] Julian Molinaro is thankful that Gomu at least has any sense, unlike others present.
[14:39] Lady Smashcan: [14:38] Lucinda Paine: ty prokofy
[14:39] Prokofy Neva: they are paying tier, they are in land groups, they are participants in clubs or groups residing on land
[14:39] Julian Molinaro: Who wants to join me on the table?
[14:39] Julian Molinaro: It's a great view. ; )
[14:39] You: I'd like a copy please Ashcroft
[14:39] Lady Smashcan: [14:38] Lucinda Paine: ty prokofy
[14:39] Prokofy Neva: I'm not going to worry about all the try-mes flying around, they can organize themselvs under the flag of anarchy and smash windows if they like
[14:40] Redaktisto Noble: Right Prok so I don't understand what your point is in that respect then.
[14:40] Ashcroft Burnham gave you Comments on LGSG - James Seraph.
[14:40] Julian Molinaro: Shows how little knowledge you have of political theories, Prokofy.
[14:40] Prokofy Neva: Well, I' saying that a variety of groups are needed to reflect people's interests, this group is reflecting Ashcroft's interests only
[14:40] Lady Smashcan: [14:40] Julian Molinaro: Shows how little knowledge you have of political theories, Prokofy.
[14:40] Redaktisto Noble: The Local Govt Study Group, as I understand it, has as its chief aim planing for and advocating land tools that support governance.
[14:40] Prokofy Neva: so others should organize their own parties or groups, without having to live as strange bedfellows
[14:40] Prokofy Neva: then they may make coalitions
[14:41] Ludo Merit: I have the notecard, Ash.
[14:41] Prokofy Neva: it's your Lenin, after all, beloved in Neualtenburg who said that 'before we can unite, we must disassociate"
[14:41] Prokofy Neva: well, "otmezhivatsya" -- distinguish ourselves from one another
[14:41] Prokofy Neva: right David?
[14:42] Khamon Fate: Ashcroft is your point to layer abstract law over the simple fact that land owners rule, or to convince LL to add tools that prevent land owners from ruling?
[14:42] Ashcroft Burnham: Khamon, neither :-)
[14:42] Prokofy Neva: I think he's hoping the Lindens will code-up something that will help him confiscate other's land, by having them push a DEED TO ASHCROFT ENTITY button.
[14:42] You: ty for the card Ashcroft
[14:42] Ashcroft Burnham: Have you seen the tools fully?
[14:42] Redaktisto Noble: I see Prok so your feeling is that since Ash has dominated this group, it might be best to form another, and then work as a coalition with Ash's group if there were common aims
[14:42] Khamon Fate: prokofy you obviously have too much knowledge of governance theory
[14:42] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, please don't be disruptive, or else we'll have to mute you, too.
[14:42] Prokofy Neva: yes Redaktisto, I'm forced to come to that conclusion
[14:43] Prokofy Neva: mute away, that only discredits anybody claiming to be a democratic group
[14:43] Prokofy Neva: but you won't have need to mute if people sort themselves out naturally in their politcal affiliations
[14:43] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, why do you think that you have the right to disrupt our meeting?
[14:43] Lucinda Paine: ashcroft - that is totalitarian. you can't' silcence dissenting voices.
[14:43] Julian Molinaro: Lol, you're going to be muted!
[14:43] Julian Molinaro: Oh horrors!
[14:43] Ashcroft Burnham: Does anybody have any comments on the notecard comments from James Seraph that I sent around?
[14:43] Prokofy Neva: Well I just pose the problem at heart here, it's a group without democracy in it, trying to jump over its own knees, and discuss democracy
[14:43] Julian Molinaro: The junta has spoken
[14:44] Prokofy Neva: so that's a five-alarm fire
[14:44] Ashcroft Burnham: Answer my question, Prokofy.
[14:44] Prokofy Neva: you need to solve THAT problem before you get to toher things
[14:44] Lucinda Paine: ty prokofy
[14:44] Prokofy Neva: It's not disruptive to install the basic rule of law
[14:44] Prokofy Neva: which comes with democratic governance in the group itself
[14:44] Ludo Merit: I just read them for the second time, Ash
[14:44] Khamon Fate: Is Prokofy being disruptive?
[14:44] Prokofy Neva: if you can't have that, then, well, we have to form other groups
[14:44] Khamon Fate: Am I being disruptive?
[14:44] Prokofy Neva: and leave you to y our devices
[14:44] Lucinda Paine: i disagree prokofy unless there's 100% open source.
[14:44] Ashcroft Burnham: It is disruptive incessantly to make points that are not on the agenda, when others have the floor.
[14:44] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy is, Khamon is not.
[14:44] Julian Molinaro: YOUR agenda, Ashcroft.
[14:45] Julian Molinaro: It's all about you, huh?
[14:45] Khamon Fate: well he did post the event and provide the meeting place
[14:45] You: Who has the floor, Ash?
[14:45] Lady Smashcan: Ashcroft, how does democracy look like?
[14:45] Rachel Aldrich: Prokofy - you can say whatever you like but as it is of no interest to me I will not be responding - but it is your democratic right to say whatever you like
[14:45] Khamon Fate: it *is* his meeting
[14:45] Ashcroft Burnham: Any points in relation to the James Seraph notecard?
[14:45] Lucinda Paine: ashcroft - did it ever occur to you that maybe having an open discussion was a better way to start if you don't want to be seen as a dictator?
[14:45] Redaktisto Noble: In all fairness, all group members had a chance to add agenda items BEFORE the meeting.
[14:45] Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Redakisto. That's how we have an orderly meeting.
[14:46] Khamon Fate: Lucinda the event posting clearly states that there will be an agenda
[14:46] Lucinda Paine: all group members, redakisto? you mean all members of sl?
[14:46] Prokofy Neva: So Rachel, you're happy with a group with one officer and no right to put in proposals>?
[14:46] Lady Smashcan: [14:45] Lucinda Paine: ashcroft - did it ever occur to you that maybe having an open discussion was a better way to start if you don't want to be seen as a dictator?
[14:46] Lucinda Paine: or, oh, 15 people?
[14:46] Redaktisto Noble: I agree with you on that, Ash. :)
[14:46] Ludo Merit: I think putting your proposals and his comments together does not give us a system that will work, but it's a start. Details need to be thrrashed out.
[14:46] Redaktisto Noble: Lucinda this is an advocacy group, not a governance group at this point.
[14:46] Prokofy Neva: REdaktisto, the agenda is utterly controlled, and you can't even LOAD the damn thing in the group; Ashcroft VETTED AND CLEARED It anyway
[14:46] Ludo Merit: And I don't think they can be in this environment.
[14:46] Prokofy Neva: that's what having ONE OFFICER ONLY means!
[14:46] Prokofy Neva: lol
[14:47] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, can you stop disrupting the meeitng, please.
[14:47] Lucinda Paine: but the clear intent is to initiate a government, redak.
[14:47] Prokofy Neva: So Rachel, Simstick, Redaktisto -- you are all happy with a group that has ONE officer and NO right of distribution?
[14:47] Redaktisto Noble: Yeah I agree that we need more officers. But Ash, what do you think about Seraph's card?
[14:47] Julian Molinaro: Stop telling Prokofy what to do, Ashcroft.
[14:47] Ashcroft Burnham: In response to James Seraph's comments, I replied with some further tool proposals.
[14:47] Julian Molinaro: He seems far more competent than you do!
[14:47] Redaktisto Noble: And as any group member knows, I feel we should all have rights of distribution. :)
[14:47] Ashcroft Burnham: (Seraph had identified a possible failing in the original system whereby dead governments could go on for ever and cause problmes).
[14:47] Rachel Aldrich: I'm just here to leanr what the possibilities are Prokofy
[14:48] Lucinda Paine: you can't decide how to govern us without our consent, ashcroft
[14:48] Prokofy Neva: James Seraph's card is basically about a very minor technical point having to do with government rulers that go offline and don't log in -- this is lipsticking the chicken.
[14:48] Ashcroft Burnham: (However, his potential solution would make governments too weak to be useful).
[14:48] Prokofy Neva: You need to separate the hens from the foxes first.
[14:48] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, one more like that, and I'll mute you, and ask everyone else to do the same. You're obviously here to hijack the agenda.
[14:48] You: tghat was fair comment, Ashcroft
[14:49] Rachel Aldrich: I'm always happy to hear constructive points
[14:49] Julian Molinaro: Everyone, is Ashcroft's authoritarian nature evident to you yet?
[14:49] Rin Tae: me too
[14:49] Rachel Aldrich: :)
[14:49] Ashcroft Burnham: Now, did everyone get my notecard from before on government pings, or would you like me to distribute again? :-)
[14:49] youri Zenovka: not me
[14:49] Rin Tae: not me
[14:49] Khamon Fate: i did
[14:49] Lucinda Paine: how many people need to dissent before you realize this isn't democractic, ashcroft?
[14:49] Ashcroft Burnham gave you Government pings.
[14:49] Lady Smashcan: i might suggest we mute Ashcroft if he continue like this
[14:49] Lucinda Paine: ty lady
[14:49] Prokofy Neva: It's in the group
[14:49] Lucinda Paine: lol
[14:49] Julian Molinaro: Lol
[14:50] youri Zenovka: i love pizza
[14:50] Julian Molinaro: Yes, let's mute Ashcroft and his redundant threats!
[14:50] Redaktisto Noble: Ash, will there be any other officers in this group, and will everyone have the right to post proposals or notices?
[14:50] Prokofy Neva: and it's useful, but only as a minor technical point, you can't talk about pings to governments until you talk about how governments are formed -- by whom? and, as someone asked very early on, WHO are they governing? only those on their sim? all over SL? who join their group? what?
[14:50] Lady Smashcan: tho its not a good idea
[14:50] Ashcroft Burnham: Redakisto, that's agenda item no. 4. We're still on no. 3.
[14:50] Redaktisto Noble: OK I can wait for that then. :)
[14:51] You: I find myself mysteriously in support of Neva on that one
[14:51] Rin Tae: me too
[14:51] Redaktisto Noble: I think we should table point 3 since we have more basic concerns.
[14:51] Ashcroft Burnham: Well, most of those questions are answered by the original tool proposals.
[14:51] Redaktisto Noble: Are we using Robert's rules?
[14:51] Jamal Guyot shouts: HOW ARE YOU
[14:52] Jamal Guyot shouts: whats up ladies
[14:52] Lucinda Paine: i'm not, redak. are you?
[14:52] Redaktisto Noble: hehe
[14:52] Lucinda Paine: i agree with neva
[14:52] Ashcroft Burnham: Actually, *all* of those questions were answered by the original tools proposals.
[14:52] You: who is Robert and what are his rules?
[14:52] Ashcroft Burnham: (I was thinking the same thing, Gomu...)
[14:53] You: :-)
[14:53] pokora33 Ducatillon: salut
[14:53] Jamal Guyot shouts: whats goin on over here
[14:53] pokora33 Ducatillon: quelqun parle francais
[14:53] Rin Tae: actually the original tools didn´t answer those questions good eoungh
[14:53] Jamal Guyot shouts: anyone know about america
[14:53] Ashcroft Burnham: A meeting about local governance tools for SecondLife :-)
[14:53] You: We're having a meeting Jamal
[14:53] Julian Molinaro: Jamal, they're trying to make you pay SL taxes
[14:53] Rachel Aldrich: :)
[14:53] Rachel Aldrich: well people, thank you for a lovely evening... be well
[14:53] pokora33 Ducatillon: je recherche un job
[14:53] Jamal Guyot shouts: lets talk about how korea is going to blow them up with a nuke
[14:53] Lucinda Paine: a meeting to decide your fate in sl withour your consent, Jamal
[14:53] Redaktisto Noble: I donn't think we'll reach consensus on the question of nuber 3.
[14:53] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh - well, that was really agenda item no. 1 - but, you have the floor, Rin, if you want to ask for any clarifications on the original tools, or suggest improvements :-)
[14:53] pokora33 Ducatillon: quelqun peut me renseigner
[14:54] Ashcroft Burnham: (I suggest muting Jamal, as well.)
[14:54] Rachel Aldrich: :)
[14:54] Rachel Aldrich: sorry to dash off...early start tomorrow... nite
[14:54] Lex Mertel: Robert's Rules of Order is a set of rules regarding how meetings are conducted. It governs who can speak, when items can be added to the agenda, when can you call for a vote, etc.
[14:54] Ashcroft Burnham: Good night, Rachel - see you at the next meeting, I hope :-)
[14:54] Redaktisto Noble: pokora - nous n'avons pas le temps discuter maintenant.
[14:54] Rin Tae: okay.... but in a constructive envoirement
[14:54] You: @Lex. Good grief no
[14:54] Ashcroft Burnham: Lex - interesting. I'll have to look into that :-)
[14:54] Jamal Guyot: yeild the floor then so i can speak about korea
[14:54] Davidorban Agnon is Offline
[14:55] Ashcroft Burnham: Go ahead, Rin :-)
[14:55] Rin Tae: it´s all too RL based
[14:55] You: go on Rin
[14:55] Rin Tae: but my main point is, that there is no real benifit in joining a gouvernement
[14:56] Ashcroft Burnham: Why is that?
[14:56] You: and so it should be
[14:56] You: those that want to govern are least suited
[14:56] Rin Tae: and I don´t own land too
[14:57] Julian Molinaro: lol jamal
[14:57] You: don't blame you
[14:57] Ashcroft Burnham: Rin, why don't you think that there's any benefit in joining a government?
[14:57] Redaktisto Noble: There are governments in SL, including a democratic one, and I think this group has value IF it explores and advocates tols for those governments to thrive (if the group is managed in a fair and democratic manner, I hasten to add).
[14:57] Redaktisto Noble: *tools
[14:57] You: no personal benefit is the way it should be, Rin
[14:57] Rin Tae: there should be.... otherwise it will be nothing more than a simple group
[14:57] Ashcroft Burnham: Rin, have you read teh tools fully?
[14:58] Rin Tae: yes
[14:58] You: benefit is for the society that elects said gov
[14:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Why do you not think that there is any benefit in anyone joining a government?
[14:58] Prokofy Neva: I think it's hilarious that Ashcroft saves his worst punishment of muting not for somebody spewing particles, not for anarchists jumping on the table, not for day-old accounts trolling him, but someone who has asked a) why can't there be more officers and b) why the group can't have distribution rights lol.
[14:58] Lady Smashcan: A government is a body to form power, a guerilla group is it to. it will be warlike scenarious
[14:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, I haven't muted you yet. I have muted the person on the table.
[14:59] Lucinda Paine: ty Lady
[14:59] You: Ash, please un-mute Neva
[14:59] Ashcroft Burnham: I haven't muted him.
[14:59] You: kk
[14:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Rin, why don't you think that there'll be any benefit in people joining governments?
[14:59] Ashcroft Burnham: (Have we all muted Jamal, incidentally?)
[15:00] Rin Tae: my point is, there should be a benefit
[15:00] Rin Tae: and a big one too
[15:00] Ashcroft Burnham: I see that, but I don't know why you think that there won't be :-)
[15:00] You: you mean salary?
[15:00] Ralph Radius: He's muted on my screeen
[15:00] You: a crown?
[15:00] You: prestige?
[15:00] Rin Tae: there should be a benefit other then one that can be already provided by a group
[15:00] xyryx Simca: Sorry, this just isn't worth the time.
[15:00] Prokofy Neva: um, I think the party of the Extreme Jihaduriat already got started lol.
[15:00] Redaktisto Noble: Ash, I don't think we should spend our time on whether there is value in government. I do think we should deal with iten 4, and expand its purview to discuss group officers and their restrictions.
[15:01] Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm, Redakisto may have a point, since it is getting late...
[15:01] Prokofy Neva: if government doesn't benefit, they vote for their feet and play WoW or Eve Online
[15:01] Rin Tae: the why should always be discussed first
[15:01] You: early here.
[15:01] Lady Smashcan: oki i see the future here lol or not lol?
[15:01] Redaktisto Noble: Exactly Prok.
[15:01] Prokofy Neva: *golf whisper* Ashcroft *appears* to relent to Redaktisto, to feign that he is "flexible" -- count the silverware!
[15:02] Redaktisto Noble: haha
[15:02] Ashcroft Burnham: Rin, I understand that it's important for governments to have benefit -that's the whole point of them :-) But I don't see why you don't think that governmetns as in the current tool proopsals will have benefit. Maybe you could distill your full analysis and put it on a notecard and send it to me by the next meeting? :-)
[15:02] Redaktisto Noble: I trust Ash with my silverware.
[15:02] Redaktisto Noble: But stay away from the fine china.
[15:02] Ludo Merit: Rin, I agree that nobody is going to join a government that doesn't benefit them and since no one has to join a government I don't see the problem.
[15:02] Rin Tae: could try it
[15:02] Ashcroft Burnham: Please do :-)
[15:03] Ashcroft Burnham: Now, we're running out of time, and I did want to get to the other agenda items.
[15:03] Ludo Merit: I'd be interested in any analyses that get made
[15:03] Ashcroft Burnham: The next one is the appointment of publicity officers and meeting co-ordinators.
[15:03] Ashcroft Burnham: (And after that, a brief discussion of future meetings)
[15:03] Ashcroft Burnham: Before we get onto the next item, any last words on tools for the time being?
[15:04] You: officers for this group?
[15:04] Redaktisto Noble: And may I ask what your role will be in the leadership of the group, Ash? Do you want to be one of the meeting coordinators?
[15:04] Ashcroft Burnham: Any last words on tools?
[15:04] You: nope
[15:04] Redaktisto Noble: Nothing on tool from me for now.
[15:04] Ashcroft Burnham: Right, onto the next item :-)
[15:04] You: officers for this group?
[15:05] Ashcroft Burnham: Now, if we want this group to be a success, I'll need some people to help me to run it :-)
[15:05] Ashcroft Burnham: The main activity of this group is holding meetings, so it'd be useful to have some other people to organise and chair meetings besides me, so that we can have more meetings.
[15:05] You: hmm. May I comment
[15:05] Julian Molinaro: with ashcroft in charge of course
[15:05] Lady Smashcan: so how is this groupe gonna be organiced?
[15:06] Lady Smashcan: Ash in top?
[15:06] Ashcroft Burnham: It'd be good to have some parallell serieses of meetings on different topics: there seems to be interest in things other than tools :-)
[15:06] You: ?
[15:06] Redaktisto Noble: So what do you picture Ash? Maybe 2 or 3 meeting coordinators, with you as one, that have full rights in the group?
[15:06] Rin Tae: yes
[15:06] Ashcroft Burnham: Publicity is also important, as part of this group's function is to persuade the Lindens of the value of governance tools.
[15:06] Ashcroft Burnham: Redakisto, that's not far off teh picture.
[15:07] Ashcroft Burnham: Gomu wanted to comment...
[15:07] You: Ash, while I laud your quest for tools, I think a more basic issue has been shown to exist
[15:07] Lady Smashcan: i think Ash is not to trust as a officer in the group.
[15:07] Ashcroft Burnham: What's that, Gomu?
[15:07] Ashcroft Burnham: (Bear in mind, not everybody in SL wants tools.
[15:07] Ashcroft Burnham: )
[15:07] Ashcroft Burnham: But this group is for people who do :-)
[15:07] You: that of governance in it's basic structure if any
[15:07] Prokofy Neva: well some people in SL *are* tools, so they don't *need* tools.
[15:08] Redaktisto Noble groans that Prok took the obvious pun. ;-)
[15:08] Prokofy Neva: I nominate Redaktisto as another officer, unless of course you've precooked all this.
[15:08] Ashcroft Burnham: Redakisto, would you be interested in being a meeting co-ordinator?
[15:08] You: I think that before you design a tool, you must know to what purpose it will be put
[15:08] Redaktisto Noble: If we clarify the governance of the group a bit, I'd be happy.
[15:08] Prokofy Neva: I personally don't wish to be an officer because I can see where this particular group is headed, and I'd prefer to work within other groups, but I'm happy to urge this one to become more democratic : )
[15:09] Lady Smashcan: i nominate Lucinda Paine as officer
[15:09] Redaktisto Noble: prok, you're such a punk.
[15:09] You: Neva, please tell us which other groups
[15:09] Prokofy Neva: well groups thaty ou yourself form, or groups I have, or groups anyone has
[15:09] Prokofy Neva: trust me, groups are not in shortage in SL, they'are only $100 to make
[15:09] You: so groups that do not presently exist?
[15:10] Redaktisto Noble: I think this group already has some traction, and I would be glad to see it succeed by keeping a limited focus and being run democratically.
[15:10] Ludo Merit: I hear Ash asking for volunteers and not getting any.
[15:10] You: which groups out there are actually talking about goverbnance?
[15:10] Ashcroft Burnham: Lady, I'm not having people like Lucinda who are evidently bent on disruptive activities.
[15:10] Prokofy Neva: I have 3 groups that have been doing this for at least 18 months, but there are others, Thinkers is one obvious one, that has become a bit defunct lately but they are large and much longer in history
[15:11] You: ty Neva. I will look into them
[15:11] Redaktisto Noble: Ash, here are teh conditions under which I feel good about volunteering in this group: full rights in the group, proposals and notifications open to all and not scrubbed, and creating a democratic system to remove or add officers, including you.
[15:11] Ashcroft Burnham: Redakisto, to answer your earlier question, the meeting co-ordinators will have notice/invite/eject/create proposal powers.
[15:12] Ashcroft Burnham: And the title of "LGSG Co-ordinator".
[15:12] You: Ash. I would be interested in yr group but feel that it is premature in as much as the issue of governance needs further thought and discussion before we can consider tools
[15:13] Ashcroft Burnham: Redakisto, there's no point in me creating a group to discuss governance tools and designing it such that it's capable of being taken over by people who don't want governace tools and throwing me out :-)
[15:13] Ashcroft Burnham: Gomu - perhaps we should have a series of meetings on that question?
[15:13] You: :-)
[15:13] You: as Proksays, maybe there are already groups doing that
[15:13] Khamon Fate: Is that what happened to the Justice League?
[15:13] Redaktisto Noble: The first part I understand (not changing focus) but if you can never be removed from office how do we know that YOU won't change the focus?
[15:14] Ashcroft Burnham: Perhaps there are :-) But there aren't any others dealing with governance tools.
[15:14] Ashcroft Burnham: Because I stop discussing the thing that people joined the group to discuss, they'll leave :-)
[15:14] Rin Tae: but we should deal with tool later
[15:14] Rin Tae: first are the basics
[15:14] Rin Tae: the ´why´
[15:15] Ashcroft Burnham: Really, the primary purpose of this group is for those who are already agreed on the why to discuss the how :-)
[15:15] Prokofy Neva: One of the problems really at hand here is that the Lindens are going to make governance tools ANYWAY, and you cannot stop them
[15:15] Ludo Merit: I agree that knowing what we want the tools to accomplish is an important part of forming tools.
[15:15] You: I wish you luck, and would welcome further discussions, but feel that I need to find a group/s with more basic subjects of discussion.
[15:15] Redaktisto Noble: I'm sorry, I just don't want this to be "Ashcroft's group" that you sometimes let others have limited rights in.
[15:15] Ashcroft Burnham: But if you'd like, I can get a notecard explaining my position on the matter together for the next meeting?
[15:15] Ashcroft Burnham: I'd need to write that all down for publicity purposes anyway...
[15:15] Prokofy Neva: so the question is whether Ashcroft infects their thinking or whether you leave it to Travis Lambert who already got an early start throwing them over with his Ban-Link which already IS the government of Second Life
[15:16] Prokofy Neva: things proceed apace while you all chat about them, that's the nature of SL
[15:16] Prokofy Neva: I still think it's worth discussing the basics like "separation of powers" and "three branches of government" and "the Magna Carta for LL" -- but that's just me
[15:16] Ashcroft Burnham: Redakisto, that's your prerogative. But it's my prerogative to create a group in any given design.
[15:16] Redaktisto Noble: Good point Prok. We want to make sure that where tools exist they are effective and fair.
[15:16] Prokofy Neva: some people love designing intricate machines all day for others to push buttons on, I think there are other human problems to solve before you make the tools run the humans
[15:16] Ludo Merit: I think if I spent as much time writing a proposal for group tools as Ash has he and probably many of you would listen.
[15:16] Redaktisto Noble: OK, well then I have to decline Prok's nomination to be a coordinator.
[15:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, actually, the tools are more basic, since we can't do those things without tools.
[15:17] Ludo Merit: Just because he wrote the first proposal does not mean we have no influence.
[15:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed - if anyone else has any proposals, do send them to me on a notecard :-)
[15:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Ludo, would you be interested in being a meeting co-ordinator? :-)
[15:18] Prokofy Neva: actually, some of the best friends are those with no friendship cards and some of the best governance occurs without a single ban or land access or even ownership of land
[15:18] Redaktisto Noble: Influence and power are very different.
[15:18] Ashcroft Burnham: Those sorts of governments could exist under the tools that I propose :-)
[15:18] Ludo Merit: I consider it a responsibility, not an authoritarian position. I have too many responsibilities already.
[15:18] Angharad Redgrave is Online
[15:18] Ludo Merit: If I manage to shed some, maybe, but I haven't done that yet.
[15:19] Ashcroft Burnham: Do let me know if you have the time :-)
[15:19] Redaktisto Noble: I don't understand your last comment, Ludo.
[15:19] Ludo Merit: I will.
[15:20] Ashcroft Burnham: Roo Rosca earlier expressed an interest in being a meeting co-ordinator.
[15:20] Ashcroft Burnham: He went offline, but I confirmed his interest before he left :-)
[15:20] Ludo Merit: Whoever is a meeting coordinator is responsible for serving the group by running the meetings and providing the agendas and putting up with the nonsense in order that the members of this grouop can get something done.
[15:21] Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed, Ludo :-)
[15:21] Ludo Merit: I will be happy to propose things without taking on that responsibility, until I can shed some.
[15:21] Redaktisto Noble: And also keping on the good side of the true group owner, Ashcroft.
[15:21] Ashcroft Burnham: I'd be very happy to see your proposals - send them to me on a notecard and I'll distribute them :-)
[15:21] Ludo Merit: Because I do not believe that only the officers can influence what happens.
[15:21] Ashcroft Burnham: Redakisto, enough of your snide comments, please.
[15:22] Redaktisto Noble: Well you kicked me out of the group before for getting on your bad side.
[15:22] Ludo Merit: Hey, Red, you don't know how much I argue with ASh in private.
[15:22] Ashcroft Burnham: Redaksto, you were ejected for violating LL ToS.
[15:22] Ralph Radius: As how can we get a copy of this chat record?
[15:23] Redaktisto Noble: ?? As I recall it would YOU who ejected me, while the Lindens never even warned me.
[15:23] Redaktisto Noble: Even though you filed a complaint.
[15:23] You: come on guys
[15:23] Ashcroft Burnham: I must confess, I'm not sure yet, since I haven't used one of these recorders before - but I've got lots of e-mails with transcripts :-)
[15:23] You: stay focused here
[15:23] Prokofy Neva: It ought to be put in public Ludo so that you don't aid and abet such authoritarianism.
[15:23] Prokofy Neva: just use edit in chat history, select all, paste
[15:23] Ashcroft Burnham: Redakisto, this is not the place for airing your personal grievences. Please don't disrupt the meeting.
[15:24] Prokofy Neva: It's not a personal grievance, as I share it too hardly knowing Redaktisto
[15:24] Prokofy Neva: it's a basic issue: multiple officers, democracy, group notices
[15:24] Prokofy Neva: you decide if you can tolerate factions
[15:24] Ashcroft Burnham: Now, anyone else interested in being a meeting co-ordinator or publicity officer at this stage?
[15:24] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, please don't be disruptive.
[15:24] Ralph Radius: I need to go and later read the chat record. What you Ash sounds reasonable to me. I hope to be at the next meeting. Good bye to all for now.
[15:24] Prokofy Neva: Ashcrfot, I take it a meeting co-ordinator is not the same as a full-fledged officer
[15:24] Ashcroft Burnham: Cheerio, Ralph :-)
[15:25] Kristy Laval: i am not, but would gladly help putting tools to facilitate meeting
[15:25] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh - are you a member of the group, Kirsty?
[15:25] Kristy Laval: yes, I do
[15:25] Ashcroft Burnham: Excellent :-)
[15:25] Ludo Merit: Prok he said what the powers would be.
[15:25] Ashcroft Burnham: That'd be very helpful if you could. We can discuss that in private sometime?
[15:26] Prokofy Neva: they don't sound sufficient to be full-fledged
[15:26] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, it's not for you to decide what powers that people should have in a group that somebody else created.
[15:26] Prokofy Neva: actually, that's what democracy is Ashcroft
[15:26] Prokofy Neva: of the people, by the people, for the people
[15:27] Rin Tae: right on that
[15:27] Prokofy Neva: you're short on retention of that concept
[15:27] Lady Smashcan: achcroft is just not a democrat
[15:27] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, this is a SecondLife group, not a nation state.
[15:27] Ashcroft Burnham: Get over yourself.
[15:27] Prokofy Neva: ok well then have an authoritarian socialist or oligarchic government then, don'to be shy about naming what it is
[15:27] Lady Smashcan: he is a groupowner
[15:27] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, it's a group, not a government.
[15:27] Prokofy Neva: Ashcroft, I thik you're the one who needs getting over oneself, given that you aren't according rights to others lol
[15:27] Ashcroft Burnham: The final item is the next meeting.
[15:27] You have offered a calling card to Lady Smashcan
[15:27] Prokofy Neva: if you can't make the government right in the group from the get-go Ashcroft
[15:27] Prokofy Neva: you will never have a government
[15:28] Prokofy Neva: THE GROUPS ARE THE GOVERNMENT
[15:28] Ashcroft Burnham: Notices will go out, of course, in good time, but at this stage, any suggestions for timings, etc.?
[15:28] Prokofy Neva: This is what I have said since April 2005.
[15:28] Ashcroft Burnham: Prokofy, stop shouting.
[15:28] Ashcroft Burnham: Hello again, Ludo :-)
[15:28] Prokofy Neva: Ashcroft, stop imposing authoritarianism in SL. It's not helpful.
[15:28] Ashcroft Burnham: We were just turning to the final agenda item.
[15:28] Ashcroft Burnham: Don't evade the issues.
[15:29] Ashcroft Burnham: Any comments or suggestions as regards the timing, etc. of the next meeting? Notices will go out with the agenda and time/place :-)
[15:29] Your calling card was accepted.
[15:30] Ashcroft Burnham: Evidently not.
[15:30] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, Ludo, you were going to say something? :-)
[15:30] Ludo Merit: Who orbited me?
[15:30] Redaktisto Noble: I invite anyone interested in dealing with these issues in a more democratic fashion to join the newly formed "Local Governments in SL" group
[15:31] Ashcroft Burnham: Ludo, were you going to say anything about the next meeting? :-)
[15:31] Ludo Merit: Somebody just orbited me.
[15:31] Lady Smashcan: i just say i reserve myself from support anything decided in this meeting as its not fair and democraTIC IN ITS STRUCTURE
[15:32] Lady Smashcan: sorry for screaming in the ehd
[15:32] Ashcroft Burnham: Well, as I was about to say, thank you all very much for coming along; sorry that those of you who genuinely wanted to discuss local governance tools had to suffer the small minority of extremeists who attended with the sole purpose of disrupting the meeting. I'll see what I can do about that issue by the next meeting.
[15:32] Ashcroft Burnham: Notices will go out of the items for discussion on the next occasion.
[15:32] Ashcroft Burnham: Notices will also go out as to how to obtain the transcript, when I find a good place to put it.
[15:33] Rin Tae: okay
[15:33] You: TY Ashcroft.
[15:33] Ludo Merit: For the second time.
[15:33] Prokofy Neva: I'll put it on my blog as an artifact lol.
[15:33] Ashcroft Burnham: In the meantime, anybody with any good ideas about tools, or comments on my ideas, please do send me a notecard, which I will distribute to the group, with your ideas on them. :-)
[15:33] You: (get a sheild, Ludo)
[15:34] Ludo Merit: Bumps pushes didn't work to tell me who
[15:34] Lady Smashcan is Offline
[15:34] Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you all very much for coming, and I hope to see you all (except for the griefers) next time :-)
[15:34] You: best of luck, Ash. thanks for giving me the opportunity to speak
[15:34] Ashcroft Burnham: And thank you for speaking :-)
[15:34] Ashcroft Burnham: Meeting is adjourned.
[15:34] Julian Molinaro: Griefers> Protestors more like it.
[15:34] Kristy Laval: thanks, bye