A conversation with Davidorban Agnon

After hearing him speak at the LGSG meeting held in Neualtenburg on the weekend, SLA member Gomu Priestman set up a talk between Davidorban Agnon and Hanako Nakamura of the Durruti Group. This is a lightly edited transcript of their conversation.


Hanako Nakamura: Good morning Davidorban.
Davidorban Agnon: Hi Hanako!
Hanako Nakamura: hi. Are you free for that talk?
Davidorban Agnon: I am, sure!

Hanako Nakamura: I heard from Gomu that you had talked with LL about open sourcing servers
Davidorban Agnon: Yes
Hanako Nakamura: I read the transcript of the LGSG meeting
Davidorban Agnon: aha
Hanako Nakamura: and it sounded like you had an inside line...
Davidorban Agnon: They have not indicated that what they were telling me was confidential. But please ask.

Hanako Nakamura: why you were interested in that?
Davidorban Agnon: There is a fundamental contradiction in how LL operates today and in how many people see SL
Hanako Nakamura: agreed
[15:27] Davidorban Agnon: LL is a for-profit organization while the spontaneous identification of many residents within SL is at such level that they feel they should have a say on how it is run
[15:28] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[15:28] Davidorban Agnon: and determine how it works, even on a democratic level. an other element of the contradicion is that the more successful SL will become, the less likely is that LL is going to be able and scale it and enrich it
[15:29] Hanako Nakamura: yes, right
[15:29] Davidorban Agnon: and keep giving the developers the enhancements to the tools that they need ... So it is in the interest of both the residents and LL itself to move to a more open standards based
[15:30] Hanako Nakamura: quite agree
[15:30] Davidorban Agnon: operation than today. but .... that has an even more fundamental problem than the issues they are facind and that is coming from the fact that the current limitations that make the economy go around are self imposed by LL and artificial and not intrinsic.
[15:31] Hanako Nakamura: indeed
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: with the metaverse and its structure these limitations are that of land ownership
[15:31] Hanako Nakamura: quite
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: and maybe even more importantly that of the chain of properties of the prims created in SL
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: copy
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: modify
[15:31] Davidorban Agnon: transfer
[15:31] Hanako Nakamura: a little unclear there, but go on
[15:32] Davidorban Agnon: Let me elaborate a little:
[15:32] Hanako Nakamura: sure
[15:32] Davidorban Agnon: physical objects as we know them in RL have natural limitations. if I give you a stool I don't have it anymore. and if you give it to someone else, you don't have it anymore. if I give you a hammer you can apply it to the stool and I can not do anything about it. In SL the rules are different
[15:33] Hanako Nakamura: i see where you're coming from, ok.
[15:33] Davidorban Agnon: If I choose than you can give the stool to someone and still have it or I can limit you from applying any editing tool to change the stool. Now ... there is NO WAY that this chain of DRM (Digital Rights Management) that the SL economy depends on can be maintained if prims can be transferred from one metaverse to the other
[15:34] Hanako Nakamura: aha
[15:34] Davidorban Agnon: ie in RL from one server to the other
[15:34] Davidorban Agnon: as it comes out from the LL servers
[15:35] Hanako Nakamura: may I interject?
[15:35] Davidorban Agnon: and goes in the ones that I control
[15:35] Davidorban Agnon: yes
[15:35] Hanako Nakamura: now, from what you've been getting at, it would seem that you would want to impose a set of restrictions on supply... perhaps to maintain transferability
[15:36] Davidorban Agnon: I didn't imply what I want. I am exposing the issues inherent with the change
[15:36] Hanako Nakamura: perhaps to ensure a more RL esque economy
[15:36] Davidorban Agnon: Change is necessary and it will bring a huge upheaval on how the SL economy works
[15:36] Hanako Nakamura: I beg your pardon, you didn't indeed. please go on
[15:37] Davidorban Agnon: These risks are opportunities as well. For fundamentally changing the way the SL economy works making sure that it goes farther, not closer to RL economy. As it allows much wider variabilty
[15:37] Hanako Nakamura: oh I'm glad to hear that!
[15:37] Davidorban Agnon: (I am cheating: I read your profile!) and the speed of experimentation
[15:38] Hanako Nakamura: :-) that's what it's there for
[15:38] Davidorban Agnon: to find among competing models which are the more adaptable as the multiplicity of metaverses captures the creativity and the time of the residents ... which brings me to the most fundamental current limits
[15:38] Davidorban Agnon: ... the metaverses are not for us. we are just here to make them be born, we catalyse them
[15:39] Hanako Nakamura: you see an independent, metaverse?
[15:39] Davidorban Agnon: but we are inadequate in many sense to bring them to full development, yes, it will be necessary and the reason is
[15:39] Hanako Nakamura: inhabited by AI?
[15:40] Davidorban Agnon: y
[15:40] Davidorban Agnon: the reason is that our RL connections are too strong and society, the traditional one, will reject a metaverse that pulls in too strongly
[15:40] Hanako Nakamura: as divisive? Un-real
[15:40] Davidorban Agnon: labelling the residents who get sucked in as addicts, as monomaniacal recluse
[15:41] Hanako Nakamura: :-)
[15:41] Davidorban Agnon: mad, sorry people instead of recognising what is being created
[15:41] Hanako Nakamura: (raises hand in recognition of a truth)
[15:41] Davidorban Agnon: and the traditional society will be right because almost all of these dedicated people
[15:41] Davidorban Agnon: will become martyrs and will self sacrifies in order to build what they will not be able to fully to create the new metaverse experience
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: yes
[15:42] Hanako Nakamura: ... wow
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: the variety of these spaces is millions of times more
[15:42] Hanako Nakamura: need to think a minute
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: that humans can experience
[15:42] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: and we will have to accept that.
[15:42] Davidorban Agnon: Ok.
[15:43] Hanako Nakamura: real life limitations ;-)
[15:43] Davidorban Agnon: It is important to recognise them because than it will be more natural to hand over what we cannot control to friendly partners who are better equipped to develop and enrich these worlds and explore the noosphere that we started. We will still benefit. the various scenarios of apocalypitc destruction are just a silly nightmare
[15:44] Hanako Nakamura: agreed
[15:44] Davidorban Agnon: Even more strongly, the development of a friendly AI is going to be a necessary element of the survival of humanity. There will be those of us who will not mind changing so radically as to be rather different and then we will have the choice to change the definitions or to split the race, as an exploding jewel in millions of pieces that are only
[15:46] Hanako Nakamura: homo post-sapien
[15:46] Davidorban Agnon: loosely communicating I favor the changing of the definition to be more inclusive, and any sentient being should be there in the circle.This change will make it more likely that we will acccept any eventual non-local intelligence when we meet it too. So, back to LL
[15:47] Hanako Nakamura: :-)
[15:47] Davidorban Agnon: and their challenges. There are many and not all of them are guaranteed to be solvable. There will be pitfalls. And it is unlikely that nobody will be harmed, not physically but through loosing their investment in a version
[15:48] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[15:48] Davidorban Agnon: of SL x which will be superceeded by version x+1
[15:48] Hanako Nakamura: yup
[15:48] Davidorban Agnon: slightly different but enough for their economy not to make sense for example the current land speculators are in my opinion doomed as well as those
[15:49] Hanako Nakamura: agreed
[15:49] Davidorban Agnon: basic businesses which think that once you design

[15:50] Hanako Nakamura: may i?
[15:50] Davidorban Agnon: y
[15:50] Hanako Nakamura: now, you've thought this through on a much longer timescakle than I and I'm very very interested to hear your ideas. my interests are more imediate in scope though I see that they do in fact lead in the same direction to which you infer. I represent a number of avs here that loosely term themselves anarchists of one ilk or another. we have been gathering over the last few years (sorry, this is not an original AV) and forming ourselves, ironically perhaps, into a more structured body of thinking and action. we see the need to rethink the economy the way LL restricts SL from exploding with creativity and imagination. we see the need for open sourced servers in the very near term. there have been problems arising recently which LL have proved themselves to be unable to deal with, I speak of arbitrary actions on various forms of political expression here. inconsistant, and misplaced actions. now, I know that you are thinking way ahead of all that, but your ideas are not going to come true in a hurry I believe we are talking a hundred years or so
[15:57] Davidorban Agnon: :)
[15:58] Hanako Nakamura: not that they are wrong, you understand, just that there is a generation or two of flesh and blood metaverse inhabitants to come first. we are trying to make this, our second home, more ... agreeable for the duration of our tenantship do you think I have underestimated the speed of the transition you suggest?
[15:59] Davidorban Agnon: Ok. Personally I think that there will be parts of the change that will come sooner but it will not be homogeneous and omni-comprehensive (just like there are parts of the planet today that do not actually access SL)
[16:00] Hanako Nakamura: still in the 18th century
[16:00] Davidorban Agnon: We will see in my opinion parts of the world in this new condition within 20-25 years and at that point the speed of its development will accelerate. But that is an other point to your more immediate concern I have a couple of issues to address if I may
[16:01] Hanako Nakamura: be my guest
[16:01] Davidorban Agnon: The online world interacts with the offline world SL makes this much more transparent than the web but as efficiencies in economy, creativity, social aggregation, learning, education become undeniable and much greater online the offline world will not be able to ignore them. So your
[16:02] Hanako Nakamura: indeed
[16:02] Davidorban Agnon: desider to make SL your home should be part of creating and maintaining a Digital Identity and it is too important to trust it to just one medium as SL is today and to one company which is LL. Much more important, It is as big an investment as being born with the huge difference that you have control over it. Now, the value that you derive from this creation, of this rebirthing, is manyfold and undeniably part of the value comes from the fact that there are many many other people that you share the experience with and today SL is the best place to achieve this as no other virtual world is as free as this. to create. to experience. to live even if you would like it to be freer still. If you recognise this
[16:05] Hanako Nakamura: right, i see what you mean
[16:05] Davidorban Agnon: value in the social structure than you must strive to involve other members of your group and re-create this value on a more platform independent manner so that you don't depend on LL's whim meaning not just restricted to SL If you have coders in the group than you should start looking at OpenCroquet right away. LL does need competition too!
[16:07] Hanako Nakamura: I'll inquire
[16:07] Davidorban Agnon: Other tools are web2.0 tools that you can use. And for all of you who want to maintaing their SL identities that should not be a problem as long as the RL recognition of the SL advantages doesn't intrude too much
[16:08] Hanako Nakamura: hmm
[16:08] Davidorban Agnon: taking part of the shield away this is still an other issue. an example: if we close the client and forget to log the IM or don't use additional tools than the conversation is gone! This is silly. there are good web tools to chat without SL An other example: If you design a prim outside of SL and import it later for example using Google Sketch
[16:09] Hanako Nakamura: yes, i have thought the same, why can't you import it...
[16:09] Davidorban Agnon: than you can create a library that you depend on and not just within SL The open sourcing of the server will take time as the issues of DRM will have to be faced before and they are difficult also LL will have to change their business model as the land will not be limited anymore. Invent some new type of tax maybe on teleporting between multiverses or timekeeping
[16:11] Hanako Nakamura: doubt people would pay
[16:11] Davidorban Agnon: or value added services. yes, sure
[16:11] Hanako Nakamura: value added is the way
[16:11] Davidorban Agnon: it is their problem! I am just listing silly examples. Yes. the signs that OS servers are coming are going to be the release of tools that enable you to backup your SIM
[16:12] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[16:12] Davidorban Agnon: and third party development tools a community of tools and an ecology of developers on a more abstract level than just rezzing and scripting. I think that we will see these in the next 3-6 months and OS servers will come towards the end of the year.
[16:13] Hanako Nakamura: I had assumed pretty much the same re. time scale
[16:14] Hanako Nakamura: What do you do, Davidorban?
[16:14] Hanako Nakamura: If I may be so bold
[16:14] Davidorban Agnon: I am sitting on my chair in my livingroom
[16:14] Davidorban Agnon: :)
[16:14] Hanako Nakamura: :-)
[16:14] Hanako Nakamura: ok
[16:15] Hanako Nakamura: Are you involved with any groups that share your ideas?
[16:15] Davidorban Agnon: what are my ideas?
[16:15] Hanako Nakamura: deep and highly interesting
[16:15] Davidorban Agnon: well, thanks. I lecture about them
[16:15] Davidorban Agnon: and yes,people like to listen. and they do ask questions. I seldom answer even if sometimes that is the impression they get. I prefer raising further questions that have to be explored there are too many unknowns to start giving answers too early
[16:16] Hanako Nakamura: you do that very well, Davidorban. you say you lecture. do you do this in a formal setting.?
[16:17] Davidorban Agnon: It depends both in RL and in Sl Let me give you a few URLs
[16:17] Hanako Nakamura: ty
[16:17] Davidorban Agnon: so you get an idea
[16:17] Davidorban Agnon: Here are my slides: Here is my blog: You already have the Online ID profile I gave you before.
[16:18] Hanako Nakamura: yes
[16:18] Hanako Nakamura: ty
[16:18] Davidorban Agnon: I also post the transcript of my speeches in a podcast form as well.
[16:19] Hanako Nakamura: I see
[16:19] Davidorban Agnon: Were you thinking of talking to your group or something like that?
[16:19] Hanako Nakamura: I was thinking to write a report for them, yes
[16:19] Davidorban Agnon: well you are welcome to share any or all of what we said today
[16:20] Hanako Nakamura: now i wonder whether they wouldn't be better off to hear you in person
[16:20] Hanako Nakamura: ty
[16:20] Davidorban Agnon: Nothing is confidential of what I said. What would be good is to ask them
[16:20] Hanako Nakamura: thank you for confirming that
[16:20] Hanako Nakamura: same here of course
[16:20] Davidorban Agnon: if they would be interested after they read your report and I would be able and develop a track that might correspond more specifically to their interests
[16:21] Davidorban Agnon: for example anarchy itself or the role of technology in anarchy
[16:21] Hanako Nakamura: as it applies here... yes
[16:21] Davidorban Agnon: etc
[16:21] Hanako Nakamura: I'm sure there'd be a lot of interest
[16:22] Davidorban Agnon: Ok
[16:22] Hanako Nakamura: Davidorban, I really am gobsmacked and need to digest this at a more RL pace.
[16:22] Davidorban Agnon: sure. I understand
[16:22] Hanako Nakamura: I am extremely grateful for you having spared the time
[16:23] Davidorban Agnon: It was fun
[16:23] Hanako Nakamura: and would verymuch like to persue this a little later
[16:23] Hanako Nakamura: yes. it was certainly that
[16:23] Davidorban Agnon: Just let me know how things develop, and IM me any time.
[16:23] Hanako Nakamura: I will be doing that. Thank you Davidorban
[16:23] Davidorban Agnon: /bows
[16:24] Davidorban Agnon: Thank you...
[16:24] Hanako Nakamura: have an extremely nice day, Davidorban
[16:24] Hanako Nakamura: /bow
[16:24] Davidorban Agnon: You too, bye!
[16:24] Hanako Nakamura: bye